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Cider Digest #0667
Subject: Cider Digest #667, 25 May 1997
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #667 25 May 1997
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Commercial Ciders (Derek Bisset)
re Cider Tax (incider@teleport.com)
Digest archives (Di and Kirby)
re: Fireblight (Dick Dunn)
Re: Cider Digest #663 and #666 (Dave Kain)
Grinding, pressing (Steve Butts)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Commercial Ciders
From: Derek Bisset <derek_bisset@bc.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:38:19 -0700
The economics of commercial ciders mean that the raw materials, apples or
juice, have to be available for a very low cost. Cider sold here to the
pub trade has to be available at a competitive cost with other drinks and
with no variation.
(I have heard the criticism made of a local producer " his quality is
variable"although the critic accepted that in winemaking variability is
a virtue)
Regular supply and low cost raw materials mean that concentrate is more
viable than fresh apples. It can be bought cheaply , stored and made up
when required.
Drinkers also become accustomed to a bland product over time.
In all this quality and individuality of product come very low on the
list of priorities for the market.The commercial cider maker is driven by
the market even if he wants to make a "good" cider.
I have heard an English cider maker, Dick Sheppey of Taunton, say "I
can't sell cider like my grandfather made".
French cider makers in Normandy say they need to up their return from 9F
per bottle to 16F to make production worthwhile.
But in the last few years I have seen consumers change preferences from
factory made Baby Duck sparkling wine to small growers vineyard produced
Riesling. An apple show in Vancouver every year attracts thousand who are
rejecting Delicious in the stores. In- pub brewing is on the increase and
so on... all suggesting a sea change from buying low cost standardized
brands to an interest in variety, and hopefully, quality.
Quality will cost but we appear ready to pay for it in other things; we
only have got out of the way of paying for it in food.
The Normandy producers I think have a good approach, associating their
ciders with champagne and the image of quality. Julian Temperley in
England is doing a similar thing getting reviews in the Times for his
cider. Our local producer says that he, unwillingly, must produce a
diluted bland product for the pub trade after years of trying to sell
cider made with a fair proportion fo cider apples if he is to stay in
business. Using only cheap reject market fruit for that purpose will
allow him to use his cider apples for a separate quality line of
champagne cider which he will have to sell at a price more associated
with wine than with commercial cider.
None of this confusion about the commercial product will I hope
stop small producers from planting cider apples and making good cider for
themselves. It's just that they won't be very likely to make a living
doing it.
------------------------------
Subject: re Cider Tax
From: incider@teleport.com
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:22:06 -0700
I am writing in regards to Richard Anderosn's posting on the Cider Tax
reduction. I was at the meeting in Seattle where this tax proposal was
introduced (as was Richard). I latter came to my attention that the present
bill would eliminate the tax exempt status of many small cidermakers. Many
of us at the IBS conference on cider probably wouldn't have supported this
bill if we had known. While in many ways this bill is a good one, I can't
support it until the cider exemption for small producers is reintroduced.
Morgan Miller
Cider Space Web page
www.teleport.com/~incider
>Subject: Federal Cider Tax
>From: Richard Anderson <BaylonAnderson@compuserve.com>
>Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:08:08 -0400
>
>There is a Cider Tax Bill(HR. 159) pending. This bill would reduce the
>federal tax on cider containing less than 7% alcohol from the current
>$1.07 per gal to $.226 per gal. This would tax cider at the same rate as
>beer rather than the current wine rate. This bill was introduced by John
>English of Pennsylvania. For those of you so minded, write your congress
>person, particularly if they sit on the House Ways & Means Committee.
------------------------------
Subject: Digest archives
From: Di and Kirby <trillium@magibox.net>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 06:11:33 -0500
If any of you have happened to visit the FTP site wherein the diegst
archives may be found, no doubt you've noticed that there are over 600
of them, each in zipped format, which must then be unzipped to be most
useful. If you are wanting to look for specific information, it can be a
real hassle. (Not that I'm complaining...I know that archiving all these
digests probably has to be done that way.) But I went ahead and
downloaded and unzipped 'em all, and pasted them together so that an
entire year's worth of digests are in one document. Makes finding info
*much* easier, so I thought other folks might be interested in having
them, without all the work. If so, feel free to e-mail me, and specify
if you want them as text or zipped up.
(I wrote Jay asking if this procedure is a problem. I didn't hear
back, so I'm assuming it's not. Mea culpa if I'm violating one of those
unwritten internet codes. <g>)
Slainte,
Diana
trillium@magibox.net
------------------------------
Subject: re: Fireblight
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 22 May 97 00:04:53 MDT (Thu)
Rod.McDonald@dist.gov.au (Rod McDonald) wrote:
> Dick Dunn wrote:
> Around here (meaning Colorado front range, at least), fireblight is
> a sufficiently serious problem that it has to be taken into account
> in choosing stock. And in a practical sense, I find myself
> constrained to semi-dwarf trees because the full-size are unwieldy
> and the full dwarf seem too delicate. Add that our soil is a heavy
> clay loam, and I haven't been able to locate any plausible
> rootstocks for here _except_ M7 and variants.
...
> Dick, from what you wrote it seems that the larger growing the rootstock
> the more resistant the tree. Is that the case?...
No. My reference to "delicate" for the full-dwarf really should have been
something more like "brittle", I suppose. They pretty much have to be
staked anywhere, and in an area like ours susceptible to high winds they
just don't seem like a good idea even with staking.
I can't decode, from the (limited) info I've found, any particular corre-
lation between degree-of-dwarfing and fireblight-resistance. It's more
that each rootstock has a different degree of fireblight resistance.
I'll defer to someone with more knowledge to provide more info on
fireblight.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd, domain talisman.com Boulder County, Colorado USA
...Simpler is better.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #663 and #666
From: dpk1@nysaes.cornell.edu (Dave Kain)
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:40:27 -0400 (EDT)
Sorry if this is kind of long, but you know how we academics are:
David Williams wrote:
>Subject: re. Cider Digest #662
>From: David Williams <dlwilli@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
>>Subject: Scion wood
>>From: Richard Beach <rbeach@advtech.uswest.com>
>
>A good little handbook on this topic is "Propagating fruit trees in New
>York" by Way, Dennis, and Gilmer, Bulletin No. 817, New York State
>Agricultural Experiment Station. It was $1 when I bought it a couple of
>years ago and should still be available from the NYSAES, Geneva, NY 14456
>(maybe Dave Kain can tell us how it can be ordered). It describes
>rootstocks, budding, whip grafting, interstems, and top grafting, including
>adequate illustrations for the hobbyist, though it is directed more to
>commercial orchardists. This handbook, plus trial, error, and experience,
>seems to be working for me.
>
>David
>
>David Williams
>Department of Biological Sciences
>Illinois State University
>Normal, IL 61790-4120
>
>Phone: 309-438-2608
>Fax: 309-438-3722
and Rod McDonald wrote:
Subject: Fireblight
From: Rod.McDonald@dist.gov.au (Rod McDonald)
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:49:14 +1100
Dick, from what you wrote it seems that the larger growing the rootstock
the more resistant the tree. Is that the case? How does fireblight work,
and is resistance in the rootstock the key to having a crop of apples?
I assume there has been a considerable amount of research done in this
area.
>
David (&cider digest),
Good to hear from you, even if it was just to put me to work. To the best
of my knowledge, the bulletin you mentioned is still available fron Geneva.
The Geneva Station's publications are ordered through:
Beverly Dunham
Communications Services Bulletins
New York State Agricultural Experiment Station
Geneva, NY 14456
Tel: 315-787-2249 / Fax: 315-787-2276 / e-mail: bbd1@cornell.edu.
Ask for G817. Propagating fruit trees in New York. Way, Dennis, Gilmer,
1967 (1.00)
Look for more ordering info and other publications by visiting the Geneva
Eperiment Station home page at:
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/
then Press Releases and Publications, then Research Publications and Order
Information.
This site also offers info that may be of interest to people on this digest
such as these from Food Science and Technology:
SpR 32 Hard cider workshop. Downing, ed., 1979 (1.00)
SpR 8 Homemade fruit juice press. Downing, 1972 (.50)
Misc Production methods in champagne, sparkling wine symposium. Hardy, Pool,
Henick-Kling, 1989 (5.00)
or Entomology and Plant Pathology publications (e.g. disease resistant
rootstocks/cultivars)
Other bulletins that may be of interest from the Cornell Cooperative
Extension "Catalog of Publications and Audiovisuals":
"The Home Fruit Planting" (1989)(homeowners) and "Training and Pruning
Apple Trees" (1992) (intended for commercial growers but probably of some
use to serious backyard orchardists). I would suggest that people who are
interested in adding to their libraries write for the catalog because it
includes price and ordering information, and other bulletins, etc. of
interest. Request this catalog by contacting:
Resource Center-GP
7 Cornell Business and Technology Park
Ithaca, NY 14850
Phone: 607-255-2080 or 607-255-2090
Fax: 607-255-9946
E-mail: dist_center@cce.cornell.edu
(or, there is a link from the web site mentioned above.)
And, check out our weekly (during the growing season) newsletter
"Scaffolds", also accessible from the Experiment Station home page. Sorry,
printed version not available to the general public.
Good Luck,
Dave Kain
Dept. of Entomology
NYS Agric. Exp. Sta.
Geneva, NY
dpk1@nysaes.cornell.edu
------------------------------
Subject: Grinding, pressing
From: Steve Butts <Stephen.J.Butts@lawrence.edu>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:54:31 -0500 (CDT)
A quick response to Brian, who asked about pressing:
If there is farmstand sweet cider for sale each fall in your area, someone
around there must be pressing it. Here is southern Wisconsin it's a cottage
industry: there are many small orchards that press their own using relatively
small-scale equipment and there are some backyard, parttime entrepreneurs who
have built their own hydraulic system and press for small and medium sized
farmers who don't want to fool with it themselves.
I bet the same is true in MI. The guy I use here does 50-gallon runs, but was
quite happy to run my 20-25 gallons of custom apples for just a few bucks more
than his standard price. I suggest you ask the smaller growers in your area
whom they use. If they press themselves, they may well do a small run for you
if you buy at least some of their apples. I have not yet invested in any
pressing equipment and don't plan to: my presser is clean, state-inspected and
gets nearly 3 gallons per bushel, much more than a manual press can achieve.
And best of all, I can give him any blend of apples I choose. All-in-all, buy-
ing the varieties you want and paying to have them pressed seems to be an
excellent compromise between using the often-bland juice made from the apples
the farmer didn't sell and doing the not inconsiderable effort involved in
grinding, pressing, cleaning with your own operation. Works for me.
- -- Steve Butts
stephen.j.butts@Lawrence.edu
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #667
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