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Cider Digest #0687
Subject: Cider Digest #687, 26 September 1997
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #687 26 September 1997
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
97-98 ciders (Terence Bradshaw)
Re: Cider Digest #686, 22 September 1997 (ylva van buuren)
Re: Cider Trip to U.K. (dan.karp@ssa.gov)
Saveur Article (Steve Butts)
re: Oak Chips/sawdust (Dick Dunn)
cyder (Victor Spetalnick)
cider-maker's association? (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: 97-98 ciders
From: tbradsha@zoo.uvm.edu (Terence Bradshaw)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:33:30 -0500 (CDT)
>A final suggestion-I think it is time for us to organize a North American
>Cider Makers Association, hold a kick off symposium where we could meet and
>discuss ciders, and invite several of the leading cider and cider-apple
>experts from Europe (names like Andrew Lea, Peter Mitchell, Basil Jarvis,
>Ray Williams, John Worle, and Jean-Francois Drilleau come to mind) to
>describe the varied cider apples and cider-making styles in Europe. I am a
>pomologist at Cornell University, and have been talking with our Food
>Scientists and Enologists here about help to organize such a symposium. I
>would be interested in hearing from Cider Digest folks about their
>potential interest in such an event and organization.
>
Ian (and others):
I think that it is high time that such a group were formed. With the growth
of the cider industry it is important to involve people with an interest in
the "genuine" product, if you will, and the popularity of the list only
further suggests the pool of interetst in keeping true cidermaking alive.
So the new cider season is upon us, and what are people pressing? I started
a bit early myself, as we were pressing a batch of swwet cider on our farm
and ran out of room in the bulk tank for it all. I have therefore started
the season with 8 gallons of almost all Macintosh must. I have been
debating what to do with it (primarry ferment started in full swing today)
and considered a champagne-type cider (Most of mine are still), adding
astringent must later (don't really want to break the seal unless necessary)
or waiting 'til January and making some 'jack. Any suggestions??
Next batch, the main one, will use 55 gallon polyethylene drum and Juice
from late-season apples. Mostly Liberty, Jonagold, a little Mutsu, and some
Gala if we have any left. After fermenting to dryness this base will be
mixed with my second batch, fermented separately: 10-15 gallons of English
cider types from Nashoba Valley Winery in Bolton, MA. Not sure what
varieties I will use, depends on harvest and what the winry needs for their
stash. Hoping to get some Yarlington Mill, maybe even a little Kingston
black...
- -----------------------------------------------------------
Terence Bradshaw
Fruit Grower
work:
Tougas Family Farm, 246 Ball Street, Northboro, MA 01532
home:
721 Main Street, Shrewsbury, MA 01545 (508) 845-2083
Internet:
tbradsha@zoo.uvm.edu
http://www.uvm.edu/~tbradsha/home.html
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #686, 22 September 1997
From: yvbmedia@limestone.kosone.com (ylva van buuren)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:02:13 -0500 (CDT)
>From Grant Howes:
Re: UK cider course
Does anyone have any information on the course being offered on cider making
by Worcester College? I am interested in taking the course, but want a
recommendation first! Just for interest sake, for the last two years I have
been a licensed producer of hard cider in Ontario, Canada. We have about 50
acres of apples in production. Last year I planted about three acres of
bitter sweet apples. This year I managed to secure and graft some French
varieties such as Julienne. I believe that if a viable cider industry is to
succeed in North America, our first priority is to get the right genetic
material and cider varieties planted. I am looking for a source of Kingston
Black and Dabinnett budwood to add to my small planting. I am willing to
trade or buy this material next year.
A North American cider making association is also important to the
development of our industry. In Canada most ciders are made either with
neutral alcohol and contain very little real apple juice. These cider
"coolers" are defining what cider is. And although the consumption of these
alco-pops!!! is growing, it could be replaced next week with the new flavour
of the month. Therefore, certain standards (such as using 100 percent
apples) must be adopted before any real inroads into growing a viable
industry can be made.
Looking forward to comments.
P.S. As an apple farmer, my computer literacy is probably 2 on a scale of 10
and I am using a friend's computer to access other cider lovers.
Grant Howes
Howes Orchards
Waupoos, Ontario
613 476-6224
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Trip to U.K.
From: dan.karp@ssa.gov
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 97 15:55:28 -0500
Here are several good sources of information about cider producers
(and drinking establishments) in the U.K.:
The Guide to Real Cider
published by CAMRA (The Campaign for Real Ale)
This book lists hundred of cider producers and pubs which serve cider.
Obtain more information about this excellent book from CAMRA's online
catalog at http://www.camra.org.uk/catalog.html.
Real Cider & Perry Page
A web site created by Gillian Grafton
This site includes a listing of cider producers which can be retrieved
in several ways.
Visit this site at http://sun1.bham.ac.uk/GraftonG/cider/homepage.htm
I realize that these references don't constitute "suggestions" let
alone "invitations" but thought they might be useful.
Dan Karp
------------------------------
Subject: Saveur Article
From: Steve Butts <Stephen.J.Butts@lawrence.edu>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:56:50 -0500 (CDT)
A Quick Note:
The Sept./Oct. issue of "Saveur," an up-scale food and cooking magazine,
has a nice article on French handcrafted ciders. Few technical details,
but good pictures, and a pitch for ranking cider more like wine as a
serious beverage.
- -- Steve Butts
buttss@Lawrence.edu
------------------------------
Subject: re: Oak Chips/sawdust
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 25 Sep 97 00:24:52 MDT (Thu)
"John A. Ray" <jar18@cornell.edu> wrote:
> Has anyone experience using oak chips or oak sawdust in place of aging in
> oak barrels (for those of us still working with 5 gal. carboy size lots)?
> i.e. types of material (Oak-mor ?), duration of exposure, amounts, etc.
I've had some experience and I've got some cautions. Oak-mor is OK, as
it's fairly straight-ahead oak in small-grain size, and seems to be fairly
pure. The trouble with it is that it's very fine and comes with virtually
no information, so using it is a gamble on strength.
I've had a problem with some larger oak chips because they seem to be cut
from old oak barrels or such. I had one batch where I added some commer-
cially obtained oak chips which had a dark tinge to them, and saw the whole
batch of cider turn dark-greenish for a bit! I think that was due to iron
contact (the chips were cut from wood which had been in contact with hoops
for example), although I can't trace the logic that made me believe that it
was specifically due to iron. In any event, my experience suggests
strongly that buying a little bag of oak chips, boiling them a bit, and
tossing them into your fermenter full of precious varietal apple juice is
a Bad Idea. You can't tell what you got in that little bag, and they're
not about to tell you.
In the US at least, you've got the choice of buying hardwood by the piece
and making your own oak chips. This will give you the character of Ameri-
can Oak, of course...I've not seen any lumber-stores selling Limousin by
the board foot!...but at least you'll have a chance to know what you're
working with. (White oak is preferable to red. If you find random bits of
oak, it's probably red oak unless specifically identified as white. In
actual color, white oak may be darker than red. It just lacks the reddish
tinge; white oak will be more brownish.)
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd, domain talisman.com Boulder County, Colorado USA
...Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.
------------------------------
Subject: cyder
From: Victor Spetalnick <bvspet@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:35:52 -0400
To: Any interested party:
Re: Cyder Press and Apple Mill Engraving 1827 + Article 1830?
I'm selling both an engraving and an article that came from the
London Encyclopedia. The engraving (9 1/2 X 6) shows 4 pieces of
equipment forpreparing cider. There is some damage from water and some
foxing, but it doesn't really detract from the engraving. . The
article (5 two column small print pages [about 5000 words] contains
'...the best practical directions that have been given to the public
on the subject ...by Messrs. Marshall, Crocker and Knight.'
1) Preparing the fruit 2) Grinding the fruit 3) Fermentation and
Bottling. Following these sections are explanations of the 30 + parts
of Figure 1's mill-house, mill, press, vat and cask), and Figures 2
(a common apple mill), 3 (a French cider mill worked on boards
instead of stone) and 4 (another more convenient cider mill). Then
there is a discussion of which English apples make the best
cider.Cyder spirit and cyder wine are also discussed.
I think you will appreciate the changes that have taken place in
making cider.I'm sure you will note some things that are new to you.
If interested contact me. The price is $7 for the pair plus $3 for
priority mail.
Press on!
Vic
------------------------------
Subject: cider-maker's association?
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 25 Sep 97 20:58:34 MDT (Thu)
Ian Merwin <im13@cornell.edu> wrote in Digest 686:
> A final suggestion-I think it is time for us to organize a North American
> Cider Makers Association, hold a kick off symposium where we could meet and
> discuss ciders, and invite several of the leading cider and cider-apple
> experts...
Are you looking at this as a professional organization or open to anyone
serious about cider (amateurs as well)?
One of the cautions about creating an organization like this, especially if
you're aiming at commercial cider-makers (be it entirely or in part), is to
establish it with charter, goals, and such to prevent it from being co-
opted. As you're aware, there are some very large producers in the US
turning out products which are labeled as "cider" but which are really
little more than alcoholic sodas with a vague suggestion of apple taste.
You don't want these folks as part of your association. You also don't
want to be looking to them as sources of money.
(It's not that they're criminals, nor even doing anything overly heinous,
aside from the fact that what they do with the few apples they use is a
travesty. It's just that what they're producing isn't what you're inter-
ested in promoting, so you want to distance yourself from them.)
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd, domain talisman.com Boulder County, Colorado USA
...Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #687
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