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Cider Digest #0695
Subject: Cider Digest #695, 20 October 1997
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #695 20 October 1997
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
overcoming preservatives (ericg@iquest.net)
High Alcohol cider ("David Johnson")
Re: Malo-lactic fermentation (DakBrew@aol.com)
sweet cider and other (kathy)
Corn sugar. (Pete Rainville)
Rocket fuel rationalizations. (Sherwood Botsford)
Harsh Bite (Jeffrey Rose)
Re: Cider Digest #694, 19 October 1997 ("Dione Wolfe, Dragonweyr, NM dkey@medu
sa.unm.edu")
Pub Cider ("Dione Wolfe, Dragonweyr, NM dkey@medusa.unm.edu")
Cider Digest (Roy Bailey)
Sweet cider (Andrew Lea)
Cider Flavours (Andrew Lea)
Re: Cider Digest #694, 19 October 1997 (ylva van buuren)
Re: Cider Digest #693, 17 October 1997 (ylva van buuren)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: overcoming preservatives
From: ericg@iquest.net
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:07:29 -0500 (EST)
Well, I goofed.
Last year, I made cider from a local orchard's juice and it was
wonderful. So, this year, I bought 5 gallons of the stuff, filled my
fermentation vessel, added champagne yeast and happily sealed it up.
After two days, nothing happened, and I had a sinking feeling. It was
confirmed when I looked in the 'fridge and saw that the remaining jug
(I do drink *some* unfermented) said "1/10 of 1% potassium sorbate and
sodium benzoate added to preserve freshness" on the label in small
print.
I panicked.
Well, a week later, nothing obvious had happened still, so I opened
the fermentor and discovered a thin layer of what looked like yeast!
So, always the optimist, I dumped a packet of the most active yeast I
know it it, Edme Ale yeast, and stirred. The must fizzed with
dissolved CO2, making me very optimistic indeed.
A day later, the bubbler actually started bubbling! I would have
advised anyone else that this was a lost cause, but here, despite what
I know about sorbate, I have fermentation.
What happened? Does anyone know? How is this possible?
Thanks,
Eric
------------------------------
Subject: High Alcohol cider
From: "David Johnson" <dmjalj@inwave.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:19:09 -0500
Just a note to ask for a little understanding for the guy who wanted to make
a high alchohol cider. Perhaps he wanted to improve the potential for aging
his cider. Doesn't the alcohol work to prolong the life of the product? In
meads, we have discussed making a mead for the Millenium. Most of those
discussions have centered around "high test" batches. How would you go about
making a vintage cider meant to be layed down for a few years? Wouldn't a
higher alcohol be part of the equation? How would one make a millenial
cider? (I wonder aloud) Could one use some fresh pressed juice and
supplement it with concentrate and perhaps spice it? Does anyone have ideas
on this?
Dave
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Malo-lactic fermentation
From: DakBrew@aol.com
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 00:44:03 -0400 (EDT)
In a message dated 97-10-19 13:39:04 EDT, you write:
> By the way, like John Bowen, I'm puzzled how Dan expects to stop his added
> 'sussreserve' from fermenting in storage or re-fermenting once he's
> sweetened his cider!! MLF never occurs in most juices because the natural
> yeast fermentation takes over far more quickly, BUT in traditional French
> cider-making with really slow primary fermentations (e.g. 6 months) the
> MLF can occur concurrently with the alcoholic fermentation. Many years ago
> there was a Swiss system (the Boehi) for keeping fresh 'sussreserve' juice
> unfermented indefinitely under high CO2 (which inhibited the yeast).
> Unfortunately the MLF went on regardless, which is one reason why the
> system fell out of use.
>
> Andrew Lea
Hi Andrew first a question I have never heard this word 'sussreserve' and do
not know exactly to what you are refering. But I plan to let the cider
ferment to compleation wait for MLF in the spring then sulfite the cider
befor adding my extra cider. If you are asking how I will keep the extra
cider from fermenting until spring? What I did was put all 6 gl in a carboy
and sulfite with 50 ppm waite 24 hours remove 1 gl and refrigerate then pitch
the yeast starter into the 5 gl. John has pointed out to me in private e-mail
that it would take 3.3 gl unfermented cider G1.050 to raise the 5 gl
fermented cider G.995 back up to 1.017 while this is probably to sweet for my
taste it demonstrates that this is not the best way to sweeten a cider after
fermentation. I will most likely add the 1gl reserve cider befor fermentation
is compleate with out adding any more sulfite then use sugar or honey to
sweeten to tast after sulfiteing.
I am new to cider and agree with Dick and Charles 7 to 8 percent is strong
enough for me.
Dan
------------------------------
Subject: sweet cider and other
From: kathy <kbooth@scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 06:25:20 -0500
Mike Cukrow asks about making sweeter cider than......
My cider used to ferment out to .095 or so and was too dry to be very
pleasant unless sweetened at serving. I sometimes added fresh raspberry
syrrup or honey at serving or fresh apple juice or just sugar. The
Germans add sweetners to sour Weisse beer and the French add cassais
(sp) to sour young white wine, so why not us?
The last several years I add one to two Tablespoon of Sweet-n-low or
saccarin per 5 gallons. At that level, most tasters prefer mine to much
sweeter commercial ciders/"cider like concoctions.
Campton tables are sodium metabisulfate which inhibit bacterial growth
in apple juice and "stun" wild yeasts. The wild yeasts will still be
present and become active. It does its work and disapate
Be patient with your cider as it will greatly improve after 6mos or
more. Make enuf to drink some when it is young and raw, but have some
left to drink aged.
Wassail Jim Booth, Lansing, MI
------------------------------
Subject: Corn sugar.
From: Pete Rainville <rainvillep@synapse.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:45:30 -0400
Making my first batch of cider. Normally, a wine maker, I wanted to
know the precise way to add corn sugar (for the "sparkling" effect) to
my recipe before bottling. If I understand the process right, it's just
added to the must before bottling. I would imagine not having to stir
the corn sugar into the must as you would also be stirring up the bottom
sediment. Any responses would be appreciated.
Thanks & cheers,
Pete Rainville
Ottawa, Canada.
------------------------------
Subject: Rocket fuel rationalizations.
From: Sherwood Botsford <sherwood@Math.UAlberta.CA>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:37:05 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: Rocket fuel
> From: Charles Hudak <cwhudak@mail.adnc.com>
> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:55:01
>
> I have to agree with Dick's comments regarding strong ciders. What's the
> point? Are you guys looking for a cheap high? Why go to all that trouble
> when you can pick up a bottle of cheap vodka for next to nothing and just
> have vodka tonics?
>
> I've seen more than a few posts lately about "getting alot of alcohol" and
> I just can't understand where you guys are coming from. Personally, I'd
> like less alcohol more often than not so I can have another glass of my
> cider, mead, beer without getting ripped beyond functionality. One of the
> best beverages I ever made was an english mild (beer) with about 1.5-2%
> alcohol. It was great to be able to knock back a few pints of some
> fantastic beer and not be blotto.
>
With hard spirits, most people dilute it with something anyway.
I can see the point if one is worried about storage room.
If your working with fresh fruit, all your fruit comes at once.
Bottling a years worth of cider takes a lot of bottles.
Also, depending on how long you want to keep it, and what your storage
conditions are, you may want to store it at a concentration that will
discourage it changing to vinegar.
Some people prefer smaller volumes of more potent stuff.
I'd like to end up with an 'apple sherry'
If you are going hunting/camping/fishing/canoeing/hiking etc,
and you like a drink in the evening, carrying your alchohol diluted
12:1 with water is a pain. (I know people who will get
a friend in Ontario to mail them everclear (190 proof grain alchohol)
just to avoid this weight penalty. Yes, they dilute it.)
(In canada we can still drink almost all running water we find. --
I've yet to carry water into the backcountry.)
Here a bottle of vodka (750 ml) is $14.00 The brand name changes it's
price by roughly a quarter. Cider is $9/six-pack. Some people
look at cider as a source for inexpensive booze.
Others (me) look at it as a way to get around another government tax.
Sherwood Botsford | email avatar@vega.math.ualberta.ca
Sorcerers Apprentice | Office CAB 642B
System Administrator | Tel: 403 492 5728
Trouble shooter | Fax: 403 492 6826
------------------------------
Subject: Harsh Bite
From: Jeffrey Rose <jeffrey_rose@eri.eisai.com>
Date: 20 Oct 97 14:16:03 -0400
Hi,
I don't want to get into the battle of high alcohol vs. low alcohol
ciders, but I do like a more robust body in homemade fermented beverages.
Every draft cider I've ever had tasted exactly alike. I'd rather have a
porter or IPA than a wheat beer or Lite, too but that's just me.
More importantly, I've made a few high gravity ciders over the past 2
years (which are perfect for sipping on a winter's night by a fire). I
usually add light brown sugar or maple syrup (I'm in New England) to raise the
gravity. After fermentation finishes, there is always a harsh taste and a
lack of apple flavor in the cider that I overcome by addition of Seneca
apple juice concentrate and/or lactose (along with different spices). Is
this common with all ciders or just high gravity ones? I don't really
consider it to be a problem because I won a ribbon with a doctored-up batch
like this.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #694, 19 October 1997
From: "Dione Wolfe, Dragonweyr, NM dkey@medusa.unm.edu" <DKEY@MEDUSA.UNM.EDU>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:43:40 -0700 (MST)
Re: cider with high alcohol content. I'm sure the original post did not
intend to start a flame war concerning high alcohol cider. Those of you
posting such snidely critical remarks need to seriously get a grip!
I occasionally like a small glass of cream sherry or port after dinner. I
certainly don't get sloshed on it. A small glass of 18-20% alcohol cider would
go just as well. I've made a raspberry cyser that topped out semisweet at 19%.
It's great with a little cheese.
I don't beleive raw cider has enough sugar to make it much past 8-10% without
the addition of other sugars (fruit, honey, corn sugar). My first batch of
cider went to 8% with a final gravity of 1.005. Just this side of being dry.
It was wonderful, but why would I limit myself always to that level, and why
would I be so rude as to slam anyone who does (occasionally or alwasy) make a
product of higher alcohol.
No one is holding a gun to your head to force you to do anything. So, if you
have comment, it would be polite to mention that a drink that strong is not to
your taste and let it go at that. Your kind of talk might get you a bent nose
if delivered in person. The ONE major pissoff I have about these BB's is that
some people take anonymity to mean they can be a nasty and rude as they please.
The least we can do is BE POLITE!
Never Thirst,
Dione
------------------------------
Subject: Pub Cider
From: "Dione Wolfe, Dragonweyr, NM dkey@medusa.unm.edu" <DKEY@MEDUSA.UNM.EDU>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:55:14 -0700 (MST)
Bennigans is now serving Hard Core cider on draft. It is 6.2% alcohol, has a
light sweetness and is delicious.
Never Thirst,
Dione
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Digest
From: Roy Bailey <lvcider@westberks.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:36:29 +0100
I have subscribed to Cider Digest and received issues 691 to 693. My
first impression is that the majority of contributions are from the
United States, so perhaps this will help to redress the balance!
It would appear that cider-making in the States is perceived as a branch
of brewing, for I read about the use of various brewers yeasts and the
addition of wheat malt. Although in Britain cider is closely allied to
beer in being a traditional high-volume, medium alcohol-pub drink, as
far as actual production is concerned it is closer to wine. Like wine,
the juice is extracted and allowed to ferment by means of its natural
yeast, normally without the addition of anything else. Beer production
is much more complicated.
Most of the traditional cider in this country is produced by the above
method, using the natural yeast, although the big producers and some
cider-makers kill this off and use wine yeast. To me, this results in a
blander drink. The natural yeasts contain a wide variety of types and
strains, which produce a multitiude of flavours.
There is a wealth of information about cider-making on The Real Cider
and Perry Page (http://sun1.bham.ac.uk/GraftonG/cider/homepage.htm) and
The Wittenham Hill Cider Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/
andrew_lea/)
In Cider Digest #693 John Bowen of St Louis spoke of using apples that
no-one else wants. This is how we operate. In this area of West
Berkshire there are dozens of orchards and gardens with apple trees
where the fruit is just allowed to rot on the ground or thrown in the
rubbish bin. The owners are only too glad to let us have as much as we
want, and, of course, it is all unsprayed. Cider made from culinary
fruit (with as many crab apples as we can find) is different from the
well-known West Country cider, but is proving popular. (Well, I like
it!)
One of the reasons why small companies like ours are starting up is the
long-standing concession that allows the production of 70 hectolitres
(1,540 gallons) of cider or perry up to 7.5% ABV per annum free of
Excise duty.
- --
Roy Bailey - Proprietor, The Lambourn Valley Cider Company
(Real cider from the Royal County)
The Malt House, Great Shefford, HUNGERFORD, Berks RG17 7ED, UK
Tel & Fax: 01488 648441. http://members.aol.com/lvcider/lvcider.htm
------------------------------
Subject: Sweet cider
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:50:53 -0400
A few notes on this perennial topic!
Sweet (hard) ciders are very difficult to make because apple juices ferment
out to dryness much more readily than beer worts since all apple sugars are
fully fermentable. You CAN do slow arrested cider fermentations but
they're not easy and they need some careful planning. These are not
successful with added yeasts - only with slow natural fermentations.
Other alternatives are:
- - sweetening and pasteurising in bottle to prevent renewed fermentation
(can make a very nice drink because the pasteurisation introduces a little
cooked flavour which balances things off if you like it!)
- - sweetening and adding potassium sorbate to inhibit renewed fermentation
(easier but not so reliable)
More details of all these on Science of Cidermaking Part 4, on my web
pages.
Andrew Lea
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Flavours
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:50:49 -0400
Charles Hudak wrote
>> I do know, however that the clove flavor which 3056 produces
>>is from a compound called 4-vinylguaicol.
Clove flavours are usually attributed to eugenol (related to vinyl
guiacol). 4VG is the 'stuffy' off-flavour in orange juice. However, all
these compounds can be spicy depending on context, so I'm not disagreeing
with Charles here!
>> The precursor to this
>>i.e. the chemical which needs to be present for this to be
>>formed is ferulic acid, a consituent of malted barley to be
>>sure, but present in very high amounts especially in wheat
>>malt. As far as I know, there is no ferulic acid in cider. No
>>ferulic acid --->no 4-VG and thus no clove flavor.
I can confirm there's practically next to no ferulic acid in apple juice.
There are, however, the closely related caffeic and p-coumaric acids in
large quantities (albeit combined), and it's these precursors that give
true bittersweet ciders their 'spicy' nose (from ethyl or vinyl catechol
and ethyl or vinyl phenol). This particularly happens after fermentation
by wild yeast (Kloeckera) and/or malo-lactic bacteria. There is a wealth
to be discovered about the interactions between micro-organisms and
substrate type (e.g. wort, grape must or apple juice). I particularly
believe that a lot of cider flavour potential is locked up in glycosides
which are not liberated during fermentation and therefore never released.
This sort of knowledge on enzymic release of 'floral' flavour precursors is
making big inroads into the white wine industry - if only cidermakers could
explore it too!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #694, 19 October 1997
From: yvbmedia@limestone.kosone.com (ylva van buuren)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:27:44 -0500 (CDT)
>From Grant Howes
RE: Apple and Grapes
Have made a nice hybrid beverage using reisling and russett juice didn't
carbonate it but I think it would have been quite nice if i had. FYO many
ciders sold in Canada are made using Thompson seedless grape juice to
produce a nuetral alcoholic beverage apples are used only to add flavour and
smell. I don't know how or why large commercial producers can call this
concoction cider but they do and get away with it!>
>Cider Digest #694 19 October 1997
>
> .
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #693, 17 October 1997
From: yvbmedia@limestone.kosone.com (ylva van buuren)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:49:43 -0500 (CDT)
>From Grant Howes
Re >Cider Digest #693 >
>Subject: Finding local apples
>From: "John R. Bowen" <jbowen@primary.net>
>Date: Mon, 27 Aug 1956 14:03:42 +0000
Wild apple trees can produce exceptionally good cider, One must remember
that most "desert apples" are the result of the endless breeding of apple
cultivars whose parentage where either bittersweets or sharps. I m sure that
somewhere in North Amereica is a wild apple tree growing in a fence row that
has the potential of being the next "Kingston Black". I have yet to find it,
but have made some good ciders while looking. One way I have iuncreased the
tannin levels in cider has been to use fruit from eng;lish rootstock such as
m-26 or 106. Would like to here more about "wild" ciders.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #695
*************************
