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Cider Digest #0684
Subject: Cider Digest #684, 8 September 1997
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #684 8 September 1997
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Cider & Beer Interest (Mark Tumarkin)
RE: Cider Digest #683, 2 September 1997 ("CIDERMANNW ")
Re: Cider Digest #683, 2 September 1997 (William J. Rhyne)
Re: Cider Digest #682, 27 August 1997 (William J. Rhyne)
E coli and recipes (Andrew Lea)
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Subject: Cider & Beer Interest
From: Mark Tumarkin <tumarkin@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 08:52:23 -0400
Hi all,
There have been several letters recently about raising interest/knowledge
about cider making and how that relates to beer, microbrewers, supply
shops, contests, etc.
I am basically a brewer but because of my interest in that field, I have
also become interested in cider making. I have been a lurker on this digest
(and also on the mead digest) for some time. Actually, i posted one or two
questions. I have only made two batches of cider so far - without the
success that I have had with beer,at least in terms of my own taste. I
would say that I am not atypical as far as brewers and their interest.
>From my point of view, they are related fields and cider has a definate
place in the homebrew community, as does mead. Probably most homebrewers
have not done either mead or cider in any quantity, but I think many of
them are at least open to being educated - both as to making and
appreciating other beverages.
I'm sure that someone who is primarily a cider or mead maker might feel
like they are relegated to the back seat. However, if such ventures as the
proposed magazine succeed Cider making will gradually gain the respect and
position it deserves.
Mark Tumarkin
The Brewery in the Jungle
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Subject: RE: Cider Digest #683, 2 September 1997
From: "CIDERMANNW " <CIDERMANNW@classic.msn.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 97 17:22:11 UT
Greetings,
I have been, and am thrilled with all the cider activity I witness in
many,many places and certainly here on the "net". Cider has been a strong part
of my life both sweet juice and hard, and the many forms of jack and distilled
cider based alcohols.
I have been a maker, salesman, promoter, guide, dreamer, advocate and
front-line ciderman for over twenty years.
starting around 1981 I would seek out sources of cider and establishments that
served cider in and around NYC,New York,N.J., and New England mostly; and
certainly in many other regions since. I was (am) curious to the likes and
dislikes, the palates and the vocabularies people would come up with to
describe the tasting of ciders. I have since had @ 20 formal tastings, with as
many as 25 ciders at one time; and have consumed well over 100 different
ciders commercial as well as homemade.
Cezanne Miller presents clear, compassionate and mostly accurate discourses
when speaking of cider, as in the past Cider Digest #683. I would like to
address the "not rhetorical" question about how beer folks taste cider.....
WOW!
This is a huge question. Establishing a tasting vocabulary is certainly
important, especially in the sensory deprived world of the information
highways and biways. This arena is shared by all of us and many people make a
living through the verbal information format-food and drink critics,
marketers, journalists. Then of course there are hobbyists, the cidermakers
themselves who could use defined accepted terms to share experiences and
promote the craft.......and I am sure more reasons can be stated. We should be
able to share our experiences using a language that propels us to a common
understanding.
The evolution of this vocabulary is already taking place...indeed we all pick
up words and phrases that seem to be "just right" when applied to the
physiology of taste. The particular vocabulary that will ultimately establish
itself as "the one" will probably be a distillate of the many that now exist.
This of course will be driven by the people who ultimately need and want such
a language and who can effect this manifestation through the communication
arts. We all have a responsibility here, as enthusiasts we can support each
other's efforts and encourage the birth of new efforts....it's 2:30 AM I'm
rambling.........
Good morning,I'll be brief, I have revisited Cezanne's last paragraph and must
say that indeed there are many types of ciders, and yes there are real ciders
and junk ciders, factory ciders and farm ciders, gas ciders and still ciders,
and flavored ciders-(i too cringe, but...), and sweet or dry ciders and even
good and bad ciders Phew! So we need categories, our own vocabulary and
most of all each others open-minded support and efforts....and a pride that is
attractive and intoxicating (not a pun) to others.
I have a few cider projects in the works and will certainly share the load of
our common journey.
Wassail,
Henry
Ciderman
- ----------
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #683, 2 September 1997
From: rhyne@pop.winterlan.com (William J. Rhyne)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:08:42 -0700
RE: Rod McDonald's question about cider in France.
According to an article in Saveur magazine, July or August1997, the
industrial market for cider is 1 million hectoliters (264 million gallons~)
I have seen other estimates of 24 million gallons. The article tells the
story of Eric Bordelet of Chateau de Hauteville and his family orchard. He
is a young ex-sommelier making high quality ciders. It is very
interesting.
Bill Rhyne
===========================
William J. Rhyne
===========================
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #682, 27 August 1997
From: rhyne@pop.winterlan.com (William J. Rhyne)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:24:08 -0700
Hello Dick Dunn and other folks,
This is Bill Rhyne and I thought that I might address some of Dick's ideas
and throw in my two cents. I have using the name, Sonoma Cyder, for our
fledgling company but another company has imerged from St. Helena, CA.
using the name, Sonoma Ciderworks, for their company. We have changed our
name to "Rhyne Cyder", we have finished our label, and we will start
marketing this month in Northern California.
Re: books or news letters
Cidermaking is exploding now and there is no time for books or news letters
as they may be out of date by the time of publication. This newsgroup and
Andrew Lea's " The Science of Cidermaking" (available at his website) have
been very helpful to our cause in making high quality cider. The other
books have been helpful also. As for Rhyne Cyder, we are evaluating the
local apples for cider production to build up a information base on the
characteristics of the local apples. Our winemaker and my sister-in-law,
Benedicte Rhyne, is an enologist with a Masters from a French university in
Dijon (she is originally from Provence). She is doing the lab analysis on
all the apples that I procure and we are fermenting batches separately
before our final blend. If is our feeling that finding the right apples
makes cidermaking a lot easier and more flavorful. We are trying to
establish relationships with the local farmers and nurseries to convey our
needs and interests. As with grapes, the apple, the land, the farming
techniques can have an impact on the quality of the final cider so we are
learning about apple growing also. We hope to be able to work with the
farmers to enhance the cider potential of portion of their crop so we can
use their apples.
RE: association
This newsgroup serves as an informal and virtual association for cider
making and I think that it is a good use of the internet. We can all learn
from each other, even if our specific locale is unique.
RE: interest in cider
According to the makers of Ace Apple Cider, their production has gone from
5000 gallons/month to 15000 gallons/month in 18 months.
A local juice processor in Sebastopol, CA. commented that we were the fifth
person this season to come by to buy fresh apple juice for fermenting into
cider.
According to articles that have been passed onto me, the market has grown
from 500,000 gallons in 1994 to 2.6 million gallons in 1996.
RE: cider vs. beer vs. wine
For production purposes, cider is very close to wine. For tax purposes,
cider is more relevant to beer (lower % alcohol, an everyman's drink,
etc.).
What I am telling people that have never tasted cider before is "tain't
beer, tain't wine...it's cider!" Each cider maker is going to establish his
own style that reflects his palate and the apples that he uses. There are
over 1800 apples cultivars so there is a lot of room for individual
expression. There is no need to rush to one flavor target a la "American
lager-Coors, Budweiser, Miller, etc."
Well that is enough for me right now. If anyone would like to try a bottle
of "Rhyne Cyder", we are selling it through the tasting room at Ravenswood
Winery in Sonoma, CA. The phone number is 1-707-938-1960. As for mail, our
address is Rhyne Cyder, Attn: Bill Rhyne, PO Box 560, Sonoma, CA 95476,
USA.
ENJOY!
BILL RHYNE
PS. yes, the repoman is intense.
===========================
William J. Rhyne
===========================
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Subject: E coli and recipes
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 04:19:06 -0400
Kevin Rooney wrote:
>>I am brand new to the digest; if this has been dealt with
>>before, please forward appropriate editions. In today's
>>(8/27/97) New York Times there is a big hubaloo regarding the
>>increase of E Coli bacteria in unpasteurized apple cider. I am
>>a homebrewer looking to make hard cider, and am wondering
>>whether this is an issue. Any advice would be appreciated.
This was dealt with most recently in Digest #652 and 653
>>Also, how should I decide what type of cider recipe to use?
>>For example, is there a reference which would tell me what
>>recipes are Woodpecker like? or Buhlmers? etc?
Why on earth should anybody WANT to make a cider like Woodpecker when they
could make the real thing from 100% apple instead? If you really knew the
recipe for it you'd probably be appalled! On the other hand, it sells!!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
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End of Cider Digest #684
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