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Cider Digest #0664
Subject: Cider Digest #664, 13 May 1997
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #664 13 May 1997
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: CD #663: mediocre cider, acid boosting (Di and Kirby)
grafting info (Di and Kirby)
Cider Digest #663 - perry, presses and preservatives (Rod McDonald)
RE: "Pure" cider ("Wegeng,Donald")
Re: : What to do with mediocre cider? ("Gene R. Rankin")
Cider Varieties (Terry Maloney)
Cider rootstocks in the UK (Andrew LEA)
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Subject: Re: CD #663: mediocre cider, acid boosting
From: Di and Kirby <trillium@magibox.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:05:36 -0500
> From: Steve Armbrust <SteveA@thepalace.com>
> I've got a batch of cider that, well..., didn't turn out exactly the way
> I wanted. It's bottled and carbonated, and not infected. But it's too
> dry and bland for my taste.
>
> Has anyone got any suggestions about what to do with it to make
> consuming this cider a more pleasant experience?
One thing I've done (and this was with a very new cider that I wanted to
share with friends from out of town) was to mull it. It's warm and
comforting, and you get to play with sweetness and acid and such without
feeling like you're cheating. :) If it's dry and bland, try slicing up
a granny smith apple or two (depending on how much cider ya got), maybe
a lemon, and add a tiny bit of cinnamon, nutmeg, allspice, and clove
types of spices. (Clove is particularly good at faking a higher tannin
level.) I've even tasted mulled cider with nuts in it. Hearty ones like
black walnuts, or even an acorn if your stuff is low-tannin, would be
good. To swweten it, you could add honey, brown sugar, or maple syrup.
If you cider is truly bland, don't be bashful with the sliced apple but
go easy on the other ingredients, so as not to end up with, say, herbal
tea. ;)
If you like mulled cider, then you are in a way lucky your cider came
out less than perfect. Mulled cider with great stuff is of course yummy.
But if it's great out of the bottle, it's almost a shame not to drink it
that way, when less-than-perfect cider also works for mulling. Not that
you should *try* for dry and bland of course. It's just still useful and
tasty in its own way.
> From: Mirra@aol.com
> Cider right now means finding the time to clear
> and bottle the last four carboys from last Fall's
> production. And of course enjoy a bottle of "apple
> delight" after a hard day's gardening, pruning, mowing.
Ya know, my friends don't understand why I prefer cider to beer when I'm
working hard in the garden. But you're right...it's the best thing.
Crisp and refreshing--but appley, not bitter. And if its some you made
yourself, it just seems to go better with getting your hands in the dirt
and growing things, than does something you saw advertised during
halftime at the Superbowl that tastes like water, right? And working
with the yeasties is just like working with the ground and plants in a
garden, too.
> By the way, how can I increase the tartness of my cider ?
> Although I ferment to dryness my cider doesn't have the
> crispness of a commercial brew like Woodchuck. This is
> probably because the juice I start with is pressed from eating-
> cooking apples as opposed to true cider cultivars. I'm considering
> adding winemakers' acid blend to the starting juice as a means
> of increasing the tartness. Any advise or experinces to be offered ?
No doubt that would work, and a winemaker's shop ought to even have
malic acid, which is the acid in apples. Or, if finding true cider
apples is your area is out, try using a more tart apple for at least
part of your juice, like granny smiths. You could also keep an eagle eye
peeled for ornamental crabapple trees growing around town. I mean the
ones that are an inch to an inch and a half in diameter, not the tiny
little ones that taste truly nasty. Some varieties of "ornamental" crabs
are edible off the tree, if you like tart, kinda tannic apples. The ones
around here (Memphis) are full of apple flavor, tho' there aren't many
of the trees. Even if they aren't sweet enough to eat off the tree, you
can still use them for cider. Add them to your present type of juice,
and see how it goes. Lots of "cider" apples are too tart or too tannic
to eat straight. To sum up--starting from what you're doing now, I'd at
least add tart granny smith-type apples, and also tannic crabs, if you
can find 'em. You want a juice that says "pow!" because all that sweet
taste turns into relatively flavorless alcohol.
Besides just acid, you still might want to think about tannin. It
balances both the sweet and tart, sorta making then harmonious, and
giving you a truly "winey" taste, instead of an "alcoholic lemonade"
kinda taste. Also, and I could be wrong here, I think also tannin is
part of what gives cider and wine a feeling of "body" in your mouth,
instead of wateriness. You can buy tannin at the winemaking shop, which
might be the easiest way to be aware of exactly how much tannin you put
in, for future reference. Or, if you're feeling experimental, you can
add stuff that has tannin in it. Like brewed black tea or water from
boiled acorns. or something. Trouble with this is that, while it adds
interesting flavors, it's also hard to tell exactly how much to put in.
You can't measure the amount of tannin in a cup of tea, and even if you
could, it would be different next time. I'm in the process of trying to
pin this second method down but brotha, it ain't easy. I think perhaps
I'm just stubborn. :) And I have a "nature girl" image to uphold. ;)
Slainte,
Diana
------------------------------
Subject: grafting info
From: Di and Kirby <trillium@magibox.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:15:55 -0500
BTW...thanks for the question and all the useful answers on grafting.
There's a crabapple tree in my city that produces *near perfect* cider
apples. They are so perfect, I am almost in worship of this tree
(perhaps I've mentioned it once or twice <g>) and worry sometimes about
it getting blown down, or diseased, or otherwise killed. (Like my
once-favorite mullberry tree. sigh.) It's now occurred to me that I
might be able to get a scion, graft it to rootstocks, and plant them on
a friend or relatives property. So now I have hope that my crabapple
friend will have a much more stable home. Or _homes_, for that matter.
Slainte,
Diana
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Digest #663 - perry, presses and preservatives
From: Rod.McDonald@dist.gov.au (Rod McDonald)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:31:25 +1100
Subject: What to do with mediocre cider?
From: Steve Armbrust <SteveA@thepalace.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 12:16:16 -0700
I've got a batch of cider that, well..., didn't turn out exactly the
way
I wanted. (snip)...Has anyone got any suggestions about what to do
with it
What about mulling it (not with herbs!) - drinking it warmed, spiced (eg.
cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves, allspice), and sweetened a little. Great for
winter.
Subject: Michigan cider and gastronomy
From: "Sean O'Keefe" <international@cellarmasters.com>
Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 16:19:42 -0400
>We are hosting a cider tasting (snip)... what else (especially
finger-food and snacks) goes well
with cider?
Have you tried chicken that has been cooked in cider? You have to brown the
chicken first, probably with a little onion, and then poach it in cider.
You could do finger-food sized wings for eg.
Subject: Apple Press
From: myork@asheboro.com (Mike York)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:07:45 -0400
I want a press that is sturdy enough to
really pulverize the apples and get all the juice.
Does anyone have any suggestions.
Mike,
Freezing (and then thawing) the fruit prior to pressing makes a huge
difference to the amount of juice that can be extracted. I recently pressed
a lot of pear juice from pears that had been frozen, and then the little
old press I made had a hernia (broke the piece of 3/4 inch ply (with holes)
that I use under the bag of fruit being pressed) when I tried to press the
juice out of some old soft apples that hadn't been frozen, and the press
now requires surgery.
Subject: Perry
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella@msn.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 97 23:34:39 UT
The Perry took forever to drop clear, even though I used
Sparkloid and Poly-clar. Is this normal?
Ray,
Check out the absolutely invaluable info on the Real Cider and Perry Page.
I don't have the address at hand, but it was circulated on this list only
recently.
Subject: Preservative-Free Cider
From: Ron Kline <ronbrew@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 16:39:12 -0700
Ron,
There has been some discussion on not using sulphite on Mead Lover's
Digest. I personally don't use it because of sulphur allegies experience by
friends. I haven't used any for some time, with no detrimental affect. My
rules of thumb are (as you noted).
1. Try and keep EVERYTHING as clean as possible. I don't usually go
overboard though, and try not to nuke the kitchen.
2. Try to ensure that the fermentation gets under way fairly quickly (with
a decent amount of active yeast) and thereby shortening the period when
other spoilage-type beasties can get a foothold. There is a point when the
yeast colony reaches sufficient size to be able to outcompete anything
else, and when the alcohol reaches a level that other infections find it
difficult to survive.
Apparently another down side to the use of sulphite is the killing off of
yeasts responsible for malo-lactic fermentation, which (again apparently)
is important in the maturing of the cider in Spring.
This year I am making my first cider, but have been brewing beer and making
wine and mead for quite some time, so what I am talking about here is
wine-making experience extrapolated into cider.
Best wishes
Rod
rod.mcdonald@dist.gov.au
------------------------------
Subject: RE: "Pure" cider
From: "Wegeng,Donald" <Donald_Wegeng@xn.xerox.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 04:23:37 PDT
>Does anyone have any experience making cider from only one type
>of apple? Where would be a good place to start looking for a "Great"
>cider apple in the northeast?
One variety to consider is Golden Russet. I have seen references to it
making a reasonably good single variety cider. I made five gallons
last fall using natural yeast, but have not had time to bottle it.
I'm fortunate in that there is a small farm cider operation near my
home that does single variety pressings of Golden Russets for sweet cider.
I suspect that many of the single variety commercial ciders are made
with the addition of tannin and other substances to help make up for
the inadequacies in the particular type of apples that are being used.
I do not have any proof of this -- I just do not see how varieties
such as Granny Smith could produce even a mildly interesting cider
without some help.
/Don
donald_wegeng@xn.xerox.com
------------------------------
Subject: Re: : What to do with mediocre cider?
From: "Gene R. Rankin" <grankin@itis.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:18:23 -0600
On 11 May 97 at 0:45, Steve Armbrust wrote:
> I've got a batch of cider that, well..., didn't turn out exactly the way I
> wanted. It's bottled and carbonated, and not infected. But it's too dry
> and bland for my taste.
>
> Has anyone got any suggestions about what to do with it to make
> consuming this cider a more pleasant experience? Here are a couple of
> suggestions I gleaned out of these pages and from discussions with
> others.
> [snip]
>
> 4. Just wait and the cider will get better. (This is easy to do. I
> made the cider in October and there's a lot left. But I doubt it will
> taste more like apples with age.)
>
> Any other suggestions for using up or perking up cider?
>
Follow #4. I found my cider, made with whatever apples the local orchard
had put into their cider and champaign yeast, to be similarly dry and
alcoholic. I was advised to wait a year. I did, and it was WELL worth it.
The stuff is like champaign, has knocked the socks off a couple of very
experienced brewers.
- ----------
Gene R. Rankin / Madison, WI / USA
To scroll down, press "Ctrl/Alt/Delete"
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Varieties
From: Terry Maloney <westcounty@ibm.net>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:30:22 -0700
> Does anyone
> have any experience making cider from only one type of apple? Where would be
> a good place to start looking for a "Great" cider apple in the northeast?
We have been making an all Baldwin cider since we started, and our
neighbors have been making an all Baldwin a lot longer than that. It
seems to be the apple of choice for ciders here in West County. The
Baldwin has higher tannins than other desert apples and some great fruit
flavors that develope over 2-3 years, if you can keep the oxygen out.
Steve Woods at Poverty Hill Orchard and Winery has made an all, or at
least mostly, Kingston Black Cider that was very good.
On the other hand the European Cider varieties we are growing and using
in our ciders, like Dabinett and Reine de Pomme, come out better as part
of a blend rather than a single variety cider.
I think the search for Great Cider Apples is both exciting and
important, and long overdue. The axiom winemakers use applies to
cider: It takes great fruit to make great cider.
Terry Maloney
West County Cider
Colrain, MA
01340
------------------------------
Subject: Cider rootstocks in the UK
From: Andrew LEA <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:35:32 -0400
Yes, Richard Anderson (Digest #663) is right - in the UK nearly all
intensive cider orchards are on MM106 rootstock, with a few on M111 if the
trees need to be bigger and a few on M26 if they need to be smaller. M9
would be considered far too dwarfing for cider because the stock is too
brittle and needs constant staking. However, "different ships, different
longsplices" (as my dad used to say) so it'll be interesting to hear how
Richard's orchard performs.
One thing about M9 for dessert apples is that they are of course
intensively pruned, therefore they don't have to carry a large
superstructure. Also you tend to get fewer larger apples with the dwarfer
rootstocks. Now the difference with cider orchards is that the trees are
only very lightly pruned, and are usually grown on a centre-leader system
rather than an open-goblet. This is because yield is more important than
skin quality and 'finish' and because they're harvested by shaking not
picking. Cider fruit size is also (generally) much smaller with cider than
dessert fruit. But all this begs another question, which is that along with
rootstock you need to consider at planting time what training and pruning
system you intend to use. Generally in the UK it's reckoned that if you
prune cider apples hard like dessert you get masses of new wood so you need
to keep pruning to the absolute minimum - this therefore demands a tree
structure which will cope. In some parts of the UK the new 'craft'
cidermakers have gone back to planting standard cider trees on M25
rootstock which of course need no pruning at all. You just have to wait
ten years for the first crop and need to harvest by ladders and poles or a
good strong equinoctial wind!!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #664
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