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Cider Digest #0663
Subject: Cider Digest #663, 11 May 1997
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #663 11 May 1997
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
"Pure" cider (Tim Taylor)
What to do with mediocre cider? (Steve Armbrust)
Scion Wood (John Ross)
Michigan cider and gastronomy ("Sean O'Keefe")
another lurking newbie (Tumarkin@ix.netcom.com)
Apple Press (Mike York)
Perry ("Raymond Estrella")
re. Cider Digest #662 (David Williams)
Where Do You Get Your Blends? (Ron Sielinski)
Minnesota cold-hardiness requirements (Richard Anderson)
Rootstock (Richard Anderson)
scion, grafting questions (for FAQ) (Cider Digest)
re:merridale (fortin@unixg.ubc.ca)
Re: Cider Digest #661, 5 May 1997 (Mirra@aol.com)
Preservative-Free Cider (Ron Kline)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: "Pure" cider
From: Tim Taylor <tt@individual.com>
Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 14:48:03 -0700
Hi! having brewed several batches of cider (including a
cranberry/apple) I was startled recently to see a cider made all from
"grannie smith" apples. This is by the makers of Woodchuck. Does anyone
have any experience making cider from only one type of apple? Where would be
a good place to start looking for a "Great" cider apple in the northeast?
I've been to Nashoba Valley (out in Bolton, MA) and their cider
isn't too bad, but neither they nor anyone else in the area seemed to have
an idea of what constitutes a great cider apple.
Thanks much in advance.
Tim Taylor
"Alcohol is the anesthesia by which we endure the operation of life"
George Bernard Shaw
------------------------------
Subject: What to do with mediocre cider?
From: Steve Armbrust <SteveA@thepalace.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 12:16:16 -0700
I've got a batch of cider that, well..., didn't turn out exactly the way
I wanted. It's bottled and carbonated, and not infected. But it's too
dry and bland for my taste.
Has anyone got any suggestions about what to do with it to make
consuming this cider a more pleasant experience? Here are a couple of
suggestions I gleaned out of these pages and from discussions with
others.
1. After pouring into the glass, add some table sugar. (I tried this,
and the result was sweeter, but not much more interesting.)
2. Freeze the cider and (hope the BATF isn't listening) drain off the
liquid to create an applejack or brandy. (I haven't tried this, but I
understand you might need to get down to -20 F. for this to work.)
3. (Keep your ears closed, BATF). Distill the cider. (This isn't
really an option for me because I don't really want to invest in copper
tubing, etc. etc.)
4. Just wait and the cider will get better. (This is easy to do. I
made the cider in October and there's a lot left. But I doubt it will
taste more like apples with age.)
Any other suggestions for using up or perking up cider?
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Armbrust stevea@thepalace.com
Human Factors Engineer 503-350-3246
The Palace Inc.
9401 SW Nimbus Avenue
Beaverton, OR 97008
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Blessed are the flexible, for they do not get bent out of shape.
------------------------------
Subject: Scion Wood
From: John Ross <johnross@halcyon.com>
Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 13:28:02 -0700
In Digest 662, Richard Beach asked about scion wood.
Typically, scion wood is a stick of a known fruit variety, about the
thickness of a pencil or a little thinner, with several buds on it.
You should understand that apples do not breed true from seeds, which means
that the seeds from, say, a Cortland apple, will not grow a tree that
produces more Cortlands. Because apples are not self-pollinating, blossoms
from one variety must be germinated by pollen from another variety.
Therefore, any apple tree grown from seed will be a hybird.
In order to grow trees that produce a specific type of apple, you must
graft genetic stock from an existing tree of that variety onto a new or
existing trunk or branch. That genetic stock takes the form of scion wood.
Just for fun, I have a tree in my front yard with five or six different
varieties grafted onto the same trunk.
Grafting is something between an art and a skill, and somebody else will be
along shortly to point to some web sites that explain how to do it. But
it's only a slight understatement to say that you can indeed use sticky
tape for grafting (but stay away from the Elmer's glue).
------------------------------
Subject: Michigan cider and gastronomy
From: "Sean O'Keefe" <international@cellarmasters.com>
Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 16:19:42 -0400
>Cider Digest #662 8 May 1997
>We are hosting a cider tasting and cider food tasting at Butch's Dry
Dock in Holland, Michigan soon and we are looking for a few good
suggestions. We, of course, love crepes, and will be creating some of
our own, but what else (especially finger-food and snacks) goes well
with cider?
>You local folks, send me an e-mail and I will let you know the specific
date!
>Thanks,
>Brian Black
>Black and Fagan Cider Company
>Grand Rapids, Mich. USA
As an accompaniment to a more heartier, higher alcohol cider, I suggest
concocting stuffed crepes out of the wild leeks and morel mushrooms that can
be found out in the woods this time of year. In addition, the green growing
tips of cattails can be steamed and served like asparagus for a first dish
(with a dry, crisp cider or a Riesling). The smelt season here is all ready
over, however a grilled brown trout with a rich, semi-dry cyser would be
fantastic.
If you are interested, please visit us at Chateau Grand Traverse Winery near
Traverse City, Michigan in order to try the 1996 cider (as well as our
wines!). Currently, I'm trying to figure out how to pressurize and bottle
the 12,000 gallons or so I currently have without investing a zillion
dollars in specialized equipment. If you have any ideas then please let me
know.
Sean O'Keefe
international@cellarmasters.com
------------------------------
Subject: another lurking newbie
From: Tumarkin@ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 21:54:22 -0400
Hi All -
I've been reading the digest for some time without posting, but I quess
I'll jump into help fill the low postings of late.
I now have my second batch of cider in the fermenter. My first batch was
intended to be a Tropical Solstice Cider for last New Year's Eve. It had
fresh pressed apple juice from a local farmer's market, ginger, mango,
and key lime. I know, I know ... I get carried away sometimes. I made it
back in the beginning of October so it would have at least some time to
age. Well, the key lime was a mistake - at least in the quantity I used.
5 gal. fresh apple cider
3/4 cup key lime juice
1 cup mango puree
3 ginger roots grated
nutmeg
cinnamon
dry Whitbread Ale Yeast
The lime was overpowering, to say the least. Well, I drank some anyway,
gave some away, and left the rest sitting at the back of the closet.
Well, last Saturday was Natl HomeBrew Day, and our brew club had a
picnic. I brought out a few bottles, and it had smoothed out amazingly.
People seemed to like it, made comments like "very refreshing" etc.
Anyway, as I quess a lot of you already know, age is definately a virtue
with cider.
My second batch is now in the fermentor. It was started two months ago
with a SG of 1.070 and has been down just below 1 for several weeks with
out change. I'm sure it is done but it is still cloudy. The first batch
cleared much more. This one was a highter gravity with additions of both
sugar and honey. Is that possibly why it is still cloudy. I am
considering adding finings, but I am concerned about loss of flavor.
What would you all advise, as far as type of finings, etc? Also, someone
suggested adding tannin. How would this be done, as far as quantity,
method of preparation? TIA.
Mark Tumarkin
The Brewery in the Jungle
Miami, FL
------------------------------
Subject: Apple Press
From: myork@asheboro.com (Mike York)
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:07:45 -0400
Hello Cider Lovers,
I am new to the list. I have never made cider, but I plan to make plenty of
strong cider, apple wine, and apple homebrew in the future.
I have 10 healthy apple trees, and and I want to press the apples. I need a
durable home/hobby apple press. I want a press that is sturdy enough to
really pulverize the apples and get all the juice.
Does anyone have any suggestions.
Thanks,
Mike York
myork@asheboro.com
"Shagging Forever"
129 Vaughn York Rd.
Staley, NC 27355
910 824-8937
------------------------------
Subject: Perry
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella@msn.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 97 23:34:39 UT
Hello to all, I am new to cider making and have been lurking for
a while. I wanted to say that the digest is fine and not to shut it down.
I do not know enough to contribute yet, but am getting valuable
information from it. My wife and I are drinking my first cider, a 3 gallon
batch that I did not have much faith in, but it turned out pretty darn good.
I also made a Perry from 16 quarts of pear juice from the health food
store.($$$) The Perry took forever to drop clear, even though I used
Sparkloid and Poly-clar. Is this normal? It got stirred up a bit while racking
to a keg, and I ended up leaving 1 gallon in the carboy. Is there a better
way to clarify without wasting so much precious liquid? I have brewed a
lot of beer, but do not know much about this game, and any replies will
be welcomed. Thanks in advance,
Ray Estrella Cottage Grove MN
ray-estrella@msn.com
*******Never relax, constantly worry, have a better homebrew.*******
------------------------------
Subject: re. Cider Digest #662
From: David Williams <dlwilli@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:57:56 -0500
It seems appropriate to respond to two inquiries in CD #662 on apple
varieties and scion material together.
>Subject: Cider Apple Varieties
>From: "Luedtke, Jim @ MIN" <jluedtke@isisys.com>
As for English cider varieties that are cold hardy you won't know until you
try them in your climate. Not all varieties of apple can grow in very cold
climates. Of equally great importance is the choice of rootstock. I'd check
with local orchardists to see what rootstocks they use and recommend.
Ranetka and Antonovka are two cold-hardy, but non dwarfing varieties. In IL,
EMLA-7 is commonly used. It is reasonably cold hardy, semi dwarfing, and
fireblight resistant. Check out St. Lawrence
Nurseries(trees@sln.potsdam.ny.us), they have a web site
(http://www.sln.potsdam.ny.us), for a lively and personal discussion of the
merits of dwarfing vs. seedling rootstock in very cold climates.
I know of two nurseries in zone 5 which sell English cider varieties. Bear
Creek Nurseries (BearCreekin@plix.com) in NE Washington State (probably zone
5) sells a number of cider varieties on a range of rootstocks. They will
also custom benchgraft scions of your choice on rootstock of your choice, a
nifty service (in which I have no financial stake). South Meadow in MI also
sells English as well as a few French cider varieties. No doubt there are
other nurseries out there with good European cider varieties. Sources can be
located in the "Fruit, Berry and Nut Inventory", 1989, second edition, Ken
Wheatley, Seed Savers Exchange which lists all varieties commercially
available in the US. A new edition would be valuable as things have changed
a great deal in the past 8 years.
Sonoma Antique does sell a number of cider varieties. They also sell scion
material of their varieties to graft yourself. Bear Creek, among others,
sells EMLA 7, Ranetka, and Antonovka rootstock for grafting at home. Though
it takes a few years longer to bear fruit, custom or home grafting is a good
way to have trees best adapted to your climate, especially when
experimenting with new or not widely available varieties.
This brings me to:
>Subject: Scion wood
>From: Richard Beach <rbeach@advtech.uswest.com>
A good little handbook on this topic is "Propagating fruit trees in New
York" by Way, Dennis, and Gilmer, Bulletin No. 817, New York State
Agricultural Experiment Station. It was $1 when I bought it a couple of
years ago and should still be available from the NYSAES, Geneva, NY 14456
(maybe Dave Kain can tell us how it can be ordered). It describes
rootstocks, budding, whip grafting, interstems, and top grafting, including
adequate illustrations for the hobbyist, though it is directed more to
commercial orchardists. This handbook, plus trial, error, and experience,
seems to be working for me.
David
David Williams
Department of Biological Sciences
Illinois State University
Normal, IL 61790-4120
Phone: 309-438-2608
Fax: 309-438-3722
------------------------------
Subject: Where Do You Get Your Blends?
From: Ron Sielinski <sielinr@cris.com>
Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 09:16:29 -0400
All right, in the spirit of question-asking, I'll ask mine:
I've made pretty good cider the past three seasons by just buying
freshly pressed sweet cider from the local orchards. (I'm blessed with
five "apple farms" in my region.) But I want to make *great* cider. So
I've toyed with the idea of pressing my own--I want to play with blends,
acid levels, etc., until I find the right mix for me. But I haven't had
much luck finding the apples. Or timing my purchase. Whatever. Each of
the local orchards sells seconds, but when I go in with my list of apple
varieties, I'm told that such-and-such a variety was available two weeks
ago, and that another variety won't be available for two weeks. I've
asked, too, about having the orchards custom press a batch, but they
aren't interested in small volumes. (I don't want to buy 25 gallons
until I have some idea how the final product will taste.) So I'm curious
how other folks do it (or did it before they grew their own trees).
Ron Sielinski
Saginaw, Michigan
------------------------------
Subject: Minnesota cold-hardiness requirements
From: Richard Anderson <BaylonAnderson@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:52:47 -0400
You must be in zone 3 or 4? look for a good cold hardy rootstock, like a
M26 or Bud 9 and there are others, talk to local growers, they will know
what can survive. Then either get scion wood and graft it yourself to the
rootstock or have a experienced nurseryman do it for you. You can get wood
from Sonoma in late winter, and there are other sources like NRSP5/IR2 in
Prossor , Washington which have a few varieties.
------------------------------
Subject: Rootstock
From: Richard Anderson <BaylonAnderson@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:52:43 -0400
After researching rootstocks and reading everything I could find on the
subject, we decided to put our orchard of English cider varieties on M9
rootstock with the exception of weak growing varities like Dabinett which
will go on M26. Since our trees were planted this year, I have no
experience as to the validity of this decision. Most of the new dessert
apple orchards here in Western Washington favor the M9, and I understand
that it has long been in favor in Europe for dessert apples, but think
the English cider apple growers plant on a large tree, perhaps M7? I know
one established cider orchard in Oregon who started out with Mark rootstock
but I believe all recent plantings are on M9. One thing to remember is
that dwarfing root stocks need to be supported. We put ours on a three wire
trellis, some grower stake each tree, and you find combination systems, one
wire + stake. You might talk with a local nurseryman with rootstock
experience, since in addition to controlling size, rootstocks have
characteristics in regards to cold hardiness, disease, wetness etc. I
realize this is getting long and will cut it off here.
------------------------------
Subject: scion, grafting questions (for FAQ)
From: cider@raven.talisman.com (Cider Digest)
Date: 9 May 97 20:39:34 MDT (Fri)
By cheating (peeking into the queue of submissions) I see that there are
some answers to Richard Beach's questions about scions, grafting, etc. I
did want to mention that these are good questions which should be answered
in a cider FAQ, and that there is one under construction here; it's some-
thing that should be sent in the "welcome" letter to new subscribers. I've
been procrastinating quite a while on finishing up the FAQ, but when I get
it done I'll make it an issue of the Digest for comment and correction
before I start sending it out.
- ---
Cider Digest cider-request@talisman.com
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor Boulder County, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: re:merridale
From: fortin@unixg.ubc.ca
Date: Fri, 9 May 97 23:10:35 PDT
While it is true that one cannot find merridale cider in
B.C. provincial liquor stores, it can easily be found in many
pubs on tap as well as in bottles in many 'wine shops'.
Be forwarned though if you attempt to find it, it will cost
you! A 500 ml bottle of scrumpy costs about $ 5,50 Cdn.
Marcel Fortin
Vancouver
fortin@unixg.ubc.ca
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #661, 5 May 1997
From: Mirra@aol.com
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 07:57:33 -0400 (EDT)
I too noticed the low volume when I've been
able to spare a minute to check email. But
this time of year is hectic just with horticultural
pursuits not to even consider the upswing in
social events that accompany Spring.
Cider right now means finding the time to clear
and bottle the last four carboys from last Fall's
production. And of course enjoy a bottle of "apple
delight" after a hard day's gardening, pruning, mowing.
If it wasn't raining now I wouldn't be inside posting this...
I'm sure, come the doldrums of summer volume will pick
up.
By the way, how can I increase the tartness of my cider ?
Although I ferment to dryness my cider doesn't have the
crispness of a commercial brew like Woodchuck. This is
probably because the juice I start with is pressed from eating-
cooking apples as opposed to true cider cultivars. I'm considering
adding winemakers' acid blend to the starting juice as a means
of increasing the tartness. Any advise or experinces to be offered ?
Mike Smith
------------------------------
Subject: Preservative-Free Cider
From: Ron Kline <ronbrew@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 16:39:12 -0700
I wanted to raise some discussion on using preservatives in making
Cider. I have heard all over this board that we all must be using
sulfites or some other measures to make clean cider. I kept reading
this and at the same time I really wanted to make something without
anypreservatives. So I went against the wisdom of the people on this
boardto make a cider using fresh pressed apple juice. I also decided
not to add any sugar which is also written about so much on this board.
I added Champange yeast and fermented in my refrigerator at a very low
temp. I fermented and aged it for 1 month, tranfered it into another
carboy and aged it 2 months longer. From there I bottled it with a half
teaspoon of corn sugar (in each bottle) and let it sit for 3 weeks.
When I tried it I could not believe how clean and tasty it came out. It
was not a bold cider taste but was light, refreshing, and what I would
call a tart, dry cider taste. People who tasted it really liked it.
This was my first atempt at making cider so I'm pretty happy that I made
something that has no preservatives and had a very clean taste. My
opinion is that if you ferment at low temps, try to be careful to
sanitize everything that comes in contact with the cider, and use a
healthy dose of yeast, you can make a preservative-free cider that will
taste great. Just a note that this is my first attempt at doing this so
I don't have a lot of history to make my claims. But if others have done
like I have and had good results I'd like to know.
Sincerely,
Ron Kline
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #663
*************************
