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Cider Digest #0688
Subject: Cider Digest #688, 29 September 1997
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #688 29 September 1997
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
North American Cider Makers Association (Marc Montefusco)
re: cider-maker's association? (Dick Dunn)
Worcester College (Andrew Lea)
cider makers Association ("=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Jay_Hersh_aka_Dr._Beer=AE=22?=")
An apple source ("John R. Bowen")
Malolactic fermentation ("John R. Bowen")
Golden Russets ("Frank Klaassen")
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Subject: North American Cider Makers Association
From: Marc Montefusco <mmontefusco@mmsw.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:14:17 -0400
Dick Dunn raises some interesting points in his caveat on Ian Merwin's
proposed Cider Makers Association. Some of these issues might be
addressed by narrowly defining what cider is, rather than who's making
it. As far-fetched and romantic as it might seem, I don't feel that we
should exclude even large conglomerates that are genuinely interested in
promoting "real" cider. It's just that that there aren't any
currently. If we can create an organization that truly exists to
promote "real" cider, then I personally don't care where the money comes
from, as long as the goals of the association aren't compromised. By
the way, I feel that a professional association is a good idea, although
it will require a great deal of donated work on all our parts.
Marc Montefusco
New World Cider
------------------------------
Subject: re: cider-maker's association?
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 26 Sep 97 10:33:23 MDT (Fri)
Just a brief note of explanation on a comment I made in the last digest...
> ...As you're aware, there are some very large producers in the US
> turning out products which are labeled as "cider" but which are really
> little more than alcoholic sodas with a vague suggestion of apple taste.
> You don't want these folks as part of your association. You also don't
> want to be looking to them as sources of money.
Let me clarify that I meant the reason you don't want these folks is *not*
because they have lots of money, but because they're not making real cider.
(If somebody made a bundle of money selling real cider in the US, I think
we'd all be happy to see it happen.)
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd, domain talisman.com Boulder County, Colorado USA
...Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.
------------------------------
Subject: Worcester College
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:22:29 -0400
In Digest #687, Grant Howes wrote
>>Does anyone have any information on the course being offered on
>>cider making by Worcester College? I am interested in taking
>>the course, but want a recommendation first!
I've not taken the course, but I have a high opinion of Peter Mitchell and
I visited the college only last week - they have a new regional development
grant to become a centre of excellence for the UK cider industry and altho
small at present, things are really taking off there! I've never heard
anything critical about what he offers and I've heard some very
enthusiastic reports. They offer several different courses so you'd need
to check with Peter just what's on offer. Phone him on (44) 1386 552 443
or fax (44) 1905 754 760
Andrew Lea
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: cider makers Association
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Jay_Hersh_aka_Dr._Beer=AE=22?=" <drbeer@doctorbeer.com
>
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 22:05:15 -0400 (EDT)
>
>>A final suggestion-I think it is time for us to organize a North American
>>Cider Makers Association, hold a kick off symposium where we could meet and
>>discuss ciders, and invite several of the leading cider and cider-apple
>>experts from Europe (names like Andrew Lea, Peter Mitchell, Basil Jarvis,
>>Ray Williams, John Worle, and Jean-Francois Drilleau come to mind) to
>>describe the varied cider apples and cider-making styles in Europe. I am a
>>pomologist at Cornell University, and have been talking with our Food
>>Scientists and Enologists here about help to organize such a symposium. I
>>would be interested in hearing from Cider Digest folks about their
>>potential interest in such an event and organization.
>>
Dick has done his part continuing to maintain this list which I founded many
years ago. I haven't contributed much lately but can provide a contact to
the BJCP (beer judge certification program) which is the largest judge
certifying body in North America to coordinate feedback from the cider
community into the requirements for certifying judges (I'm codirector of the
BJCP exam administration). I believe the BJCP is also working on a cider
score sheet.
I encourage efforts to create such an organization and would be happy to
participate.
Jay
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalt's
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------------------------------
Subject: An apple source
From: "John R. Bowen" <jbowen@primary.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 1956 13:26:08 +0000
For those of you looking for apple tree sources, I have just received
a catalog from Ed Frackler's Rocky Meadow Orchard & Nursery near
Louisville, KY. He does't list any specific old cider varieties, but
he does have a paragraph on cider production and suggests some current
varieties. He clearly is receptive to cider making ideas, and has
some thoughts on Asian Pear cider, too.
He does carry the Hewes Virginia Crab which he says has been long used
in cider production. This might be a good planting for those with
little space and the need for ornamental value, too.
He usually has scion wood of many varieties not listed in the catalog,
and might have some other interesting things if you ask.
I believe he also sells fruit locally and would be a good source of
interesting varieties for those in his area.
I have no affiliation, but have been a customer and gotten good advice
in the past.
The address:
Rocky Meadow Orchard & Nursery
360 Rocky Meadow Rd NW
New Salisbury, IN 47161
(812) 347-2213
John
------------------------------
Subject: Malolactic fermentation
From: "John R. Bowen" <jbowen@primary.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 1956 12:51:48 +0000
I would like to learn more about malolactic fermentation. I have two
ciders, the first from summer apples that started with a gravity of
about 1.040 and titrable acidity of about .7% (tartaric). Gravity
raised to about 1.06 with honey. Cote des Blancs yeast. It is now (2
months, 75F) fermented out to below 1.000, the sweetness is gone, and
the sourness remains. It doesn't taste very pleasant or appley.
The second is just starting, from crabapples. Gravity about 1.05,
acids 1.8% (tartaric). Cote des Blancs yeast. I thouhgt I might
blend some with the first batch, but the acidity worries me.
In neither case did I treat with sulfites, pasteruize, or do anything
to inhibit the wild yeast or bacteria except innoculate with the Cote
des Blancs.
So the questions are: Are the malolactic fermentation (bacteria?)
ALWAYS found on USA apples, of just often, or rarely. Is there any
need to innoculate with a commercial culture? Is the acidity of the
first batch unreasonably high, and is there any hope for reducing the
acidity of the crabapple batch?
It seems that English ciders are usually fermented around 50F, my
basement usually runs 65F in the winter. What about temperature
effects?
TIA for your advice.
John
------------------------------
Subject: Golden Russets
From: "Frank Klaassen" <klaassen@chass.utoronto.ca>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:43:31 -0400
The common wisdom seems to be that Golden Russets are the best bet for
cider in Ontario. Does anyone on the list know of a place in South Cenral
Ontario where I could get a bunch?
Also, I was told by someone selling sweet cider at our local market that
Golden Russets are poor juice producers. I suspect, as I have heard no one
else mention it, that he was BSing me. What is the bushel to gallon ratio
for these apples?
Frank Klaassen
klaassen@chass.utoronto.ca
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #688
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