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Cider Digest #0702
Subject: Cider Digest #702, 5 November 1997
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #702 5 November 1997
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Adding Yeast at Bottling (Mark Cohen)
RE: Cider Digest #701 (Dave Kain)
Thanksgiving visit ("John A. Ray")
Adding Yeast at Bottling (Mark Cohen)
Lalvin yeasts ("David Johnson")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Adding Yeast at Bottling
From: Mark Cohen <markcohe@us.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 09:57:52 -0500
(Hope this isn't posted 3 times - problems with our mail server).
Hey, there:
I've produced over (20) 5-gallon batches of cider over the last two years
and had relatively good experience with producing sparkling sweet cider.
Most of the time I simply added more than enough sugar to a lower
attenuation yeast, such as the Wyeast Sweet Mead (3269?), which usually
poops out at around 8% alcohol. I then add the usual amounts of priming
sugar and the stuff carbonates nicely in bottle with plenty of residual
sugar.
Lately, though, I've been trying to follow the advice of Paul Correnty in
his book, where he recommends leaving the cider - either after racking or on
it's lees - for 6-8 months, perhaps to help with the malo-lactic
fermentation. When I do this though, the brew seems to lie dormant after 6
weeks or so with no yeast action present. If I then bottle after this 6-8
months and prime as usual, I get a flat/still cider with a kind of cooked
sugar taste (perhaps I'd boiled the sugar in the water too long). This is
usually when I've racked it off once or twice - it's almost like the yeast
is gone.
So - I was wondering - can I add more yeast right before bottling to
stimulate the consumption of the sugar - or would this result in a hazy brew
with yeast at the bottom of the bottle? If so, do I have to use the same
yeast? Would yeast nutrient be any better? Or, am I simply tempting fate by
adding more fuel and possibly creating future bottle rockets?
Please let me know - I've got a batch ready to go!
Thanks-
- -Mark Cohen-
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #701
From: dpk1@nysaes.cornell.edu (Dave Kain)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:26:45 -0500 (EST)
Michael Ferdinando wrote...
>About twenty years ago, he was attempting to make a
>carbonated cider by "methode champaignoise." He didn't realize that when
>the bottles are "turned", professional vintners still wear safety goggles
>and what is essentially a chainmail gauntlet to protect their hand. One of
>the champagne bottles exploded in his hand when he turned it...
I had some champagne style cider in my cellar and, to save room,
put some of the (champagne) bottles on their sides. A few days (as I
recall) later I found one had exploded and stood the rest back up. This
was the only time I've ever had an explosion. I have not laid any on their
sides since and have had no more problems. Does anyone know why laying the
bottles on their sides would cause them to explode? Maybe this practice
should be avoided without the precautions taken by the professionals.
Dave Kain
David P. Kain
Dept. of Entomology
New York State Agricultural Experiment Station
Geneva, NY 14456
email: dpk1@nysaes.cornell.edu
Phone 315-787-2341
------------------------------
Subject: Thanksgiving visit
From: "John A. Ray" <jar18@cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:37:18 -0400
Hello all,
I'll be spending Thanksgiving week in Williamsburg, VA, and am looking for
cider makers and/or cider/antique apple orchards to visit. Does anyone
know of such places near Williamsburg?
Thanks
John A. Ray
122 Plant Science Building
Department of Fruit and Vegetable Science
Cornell University
Ithaca, NY 14853
Phone (607) 255-1774
FAX (607) 255-0599
------------------------------
Subject: Adding Yeast at Bottling
From: Mark Cohen <bigmark@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 09:27:24 -0500
Hey, there:
I've produced over (20) 5-gallon batches of cider over the last two years
and had relatively good experience with producing sparkling sweet cider.
Most of the time I simply added more than enough sugar to a lower
attenuation yeast, such as the Wyeast Sweet Mead (3269?), which usually
poops out at around 8% alcohol. I then add the usual amounts of priming
sugar and the stuff carbonates nicely in bottle with plenty of residual
sugar.
Lately, though, I've been trying to follow the advice of Paul Correnty in
his book, where he recommends leaving the cider - either after racking or on
it's lees - for 6-8 months, perhaps to help with the malo-lactic
fermentation. When I do this though, the brew seems to lie dormant after 6
weeks or so with no yeast action present. If I then bottle after this 6-8
months and prime as usual, I get a flat/still cider with a kind of cooked
sugar taste (perhaps I'd boiled the sugar in the water too long). This is
usually when I've racked it off once or twice - it's almost like the yeast
is gone.
So - I was wondering - can I add more yeast right before bottling to
stimulate the consumption of the sugar - or would this result in a hazy brew
with yeast at the bottom of the bottle? If so, do I have to use the same
yeast? Would yeast nutrient be any better? Or, am I simply tempting fate by
adding more fuel and possibly creating future bottle rockets?
Please let me know - I've got a batch ready to go!
Thanks-
- -Mark Cohen-
- -------------------------------------------
"The life of a repo man is always intense."
------------------------------
Subject: Lalvin yeasts
From: "David Johnson" <dmjalj@inwave.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:30:59 -0600
Cidermakers,
I was investigating the Lallemand website with questions about using
their yeasts in cider and mead. I posted some questions to their wine
consultant Clayton Cone. I thought his answer would be of interest to others
here.
Dave
> In investigating the lallemand website, I wanted information about
> using D-47 and K1V-1116 in Mead and cider. And, interestingly enough,
> they both are supposed to have "competitive factor". They give an
> alcohol tolerance of 12-14%. D-47 is recomended for mead but K1V-1116
> is recomended for low nutient musts. K1V is recomended for Late
> Harvest wines (but they don't say why). Lallemand's comments about
> using this in late harvest wines are interesting. Being someone who
> really enjoys a late harvest wine, I would like to know why they say
> this and how this might be applied to mead making. Lallemand also says
> that D-47 "enhances varietal character". Does this mean that there are
> some grapey, fruity, or winey overtones? or does it mean it will
> emphasize the flavors that are there somehow? People on the Mead
> lovers Digest are apparently using both yeasts. I would be interested
> in your opinion about the use of both yeasts in Mead and the real
> differences between both yeasts.
> Dave Johnson
Dave Johnson,
Many of the better strains that are selected today have the 'competitive
factor' (C.F.).They are not selected because they have this factor.
However, all strainsof yeast are tested for this factor. All strains of
yeast in nature are 'competitive factor' positive, negative or neutral. C.F.
+ strains cannot be destroyed by any other yeast and can destroy C.F.-
strains. It cannot destroy 'C.F.' neutral strains. This factor is of limited
value. You would not wish to mix a C.F.+ with a C.F.- strain. It sometimes
explains some stuck commercial fermentations and other problems. ICV-D-47
and K1V-1116 were both isolated by the same wine research institute in the
south of France. The K1 was isolated and marketed 15+ years before the D-47
strain. The fact that the K1 worked satisfactorily in must from low nutrient
soil and grapes is an important factor in Europe because the law allows
limited nutrient supplimentation. The US is much more generous in the
amountallowed. Home winemakers can add as much as is needed. The K1 yeast
is a very strong fermenter and produced a light, fruity American style
chardonnay. The D-47 was isolated to produce a less aromatic, French style
chardonnay that was more suited for barrel aging. It produces less esters
and other by-products that could mask the typicity (the French love that
descriptor) of the grape varietal thus 'enhancing' the varietal character.
Both of the yeast contribute to mead and cider the same characteristics that
they do to
wine: The K1 tends to be more light and fruity. The D-47 produces less
esters, more earthy notes that are good for dry mead and cider that is
being considered for aging on the leas and perhaps in oak. It also enhances
mouth feel by the production of trace amounts of 90,000 mw polysaccharides
The K1 would be great for light and fruity mead or cider with a little
residual sugar.
The 71B-1122 would be an excellent choice for the American style, light and
fruity mead and cider. It will produce a little more alcohol in cider
because it converts some of the malic acid in the apple juice to
alcohol(different than bacterial malo-lactic fermentation).
Most of the Lalvin strains of yeast will work well up to 16% alcohol if
adequate
nutrients are added and air allowed to be present during the first 24-48
hours of fermentation (no air later) along with frequent agitation. With
special care and nutrients, several of the strains can be made to produce
20+ % alcohol.
EC-1118, K1V-1116 and ICV-71B are recommended for ice wine and late
harvestwine. The key to fermenting high brix must - 30 -40 brix- is cell
population and lots of nutrients. No wine yeast grows well in a high sugar
environment so you must add at least 1.2 g. of yeast/l of must and 0.5+ g.
nutrients/l. Agitate the fermenting must frequently. The fermentation can be
completed in <30 days. Many Canadian wineries have used each of these three
strains for both ice and late harvest wine production. All of the strains
mentioned will do a very good job for you; however, only you can determine
which one produces the flavor and aroma characteristics that you prefer.
If you get into commercial size fermentations, there are several other of
Lalvin yeast that are now being used in mead, cider, ice wine and late
harvest. Let me know.
Clayton Cone
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #702
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