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Cider Digest #0673
Subject: Cider Digest #673, 6 July 1997
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #673 6 July 1997
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Easy Cider? (Dave Bell)
cider apple trees (ejmoone@CCGATE.HAC.COM)
sweet cider w/ beer yeast? (PickleMan)
Re: Cider Digest #672, 30 June 1997 (Rod McDonald)
Cider colour (Andrew Lea)
Re: Cider Digest #672, 30 June 1997 (Mirra@aol.com)
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Subject: Re: Easy Cider?
From: Dave Bell <dbell@bayarea.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 09:47:27 -0700 (PDT)
On 30 Jun 1997, Dick Dunn wrote:
>
> To me, the pursuit of growing your own cider apples for cider-making is
> similar to moving from extract to all-grain brewing of beer. I don't mean
> to imply any elitism or superiority there; I'm strictly an extract brewer.
> It's a major step up in the amount of control you've got; it's also a major
> step up in effort and commitment (moreso with growing apples than with all-
> grain brewing).
Indeed a major step! How many (even "elitist") all-grain
brewers do you know that grow, malt, AND roast their own barley?
Perhaps breed their own strains?
I find the "orchardist" discussions interesting, but can't relate
them to my own feeble and inconsistant brewing; certainly, the
source of my juice has much to do with the variations in quality
I have, but it's just too big a step for me to take, to grow
my own!
Dave Bell
------------------------------
Subject: cider apple trees
From: ejmoone@CCGATE.HAC.COM
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 97 12:59:52 PST8
I am located in West Central Georgia, and I am interested in maybe
planting a few apple trees specifically for cider apple production. I
was wondering about how many trees to plant, what varieties would be
good here in the south, disease and pest resistant, etc.
I was wanting to plant about 5-10 trees. Would this be sufficient to
produce 10-20 gallons of cider a year. I thought growing the apples
myself would be an interesting sideline to my cider making.
With the digest volume low now, I hope some knowledgeable people will
be willing to help a newbie orchard palnter.
Eddie
------------------------------
Subject: sweet cider w/ beer yeast?
From: PickleMan <wrp2@axe.humboldt.edu>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:04:11 -0700 (PDT)
CD,
Has anyone tried to make a sweet cider by using a beer yeast with low
attenuation? This idea was spawned by my recent attempt at an scotch ale
that came out beautifully sweet.
PickleMan
wrp2@axe.humboldt.edu
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #672, 30 June 1997
From: Rod.McDonald@dist.gov.au (Rod McDonald)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:30:57 +1100
Subject: Cider Colour
From: "Keith Robertson" <apples@lin.cbl.com.au>
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 06:13:33 +0000
Asked:
how to get a bit more colour <snip> I wondered if fermenting the
cider before pressing the juice for a while would help and pick up
some colour from the skins or should I allow the pulp to oxadise for
a while before pressing.
Keith,
This is the first year I've made cider from juice pressed from cider apples
free of any additives. Our local organic orchard doesn't use anti-oxidants
in either its fermenting or drinking juice, and as a result it is already
oxidised when you get it. AFAIK oxidation doesn't affect the taste - the
cider history on the Real Cider and Perry Page on the web says of apples:
Tannins are present, mainly epi-catechin, dimeric and trimeric
pro-anthocyanidin and phenolic acids. These phenolics are the fraction
which undergoes oxidation in damaged fruit.
and it doesn't say anything about oxidation affecting taste or having an
impact on the cider making process.
The history also contains :
For a traditional style English cider, use an ale-type yeast. For a
Normandy style cider use a wine yeast. Kitzinger, Hock, and Champagne
yeasts all give good results. The finished product is paler than
English cider and tastes closer to apple wine than does English cider.
This seems to suggest the type of yeast used will affect the colour. Has
anyone had any experience of different affects of different yeasts?
I have noted that the oxidised juice I am using appears to be fermenting to
a golden brown colour. The colour may still, however settle out. About 15
years ago I had a 'Merrydown Vintage Cider' which had that sort of colour,
and if the cider I am currently fermenting (awaiting malo-lactic
fermentation at the moment) has that colour I will be very pleased with
myself - as long as it tastes OK too!
You also mentioned a steam juicer. What sort of beast is that?
Rod McDonald
rod.mcdonald@dist.gov.au
------------------------------
Subject: Cider colour
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:36:50 -0400
Keith Robertson (Cider Digest #672, 30 June 1997) asked about Cider Colour.
The answer depends on what you mean by colour.
If you want a red apple skin colour in cider, then you might just about
manage it by fermenting on the skins - I think this was done in Quebec some
years ago but they had to add Vitamin C in the early stages to prevent
browning. Even so it was only a pale pink. There are or were at least two
UK cider apples (Bloody Turk and Bloody Butcher) which have red FLESH and
therefore will produce a red or pink cider (but again watch it doesn't go
brown first). Otherwise you can add sour cherry juice (like they do in
Belgium) or the juice from red-fleshed crab apples - I've done that and it
works!
But if you want a deep golden 'cider' colour then you must let oxidation
take place BEFORE fermentation. It's not generally known that yeast
fermentation reduces the brown colour of apple juice and grape must by
about a half, and that colour cannot be restored afterwards except by
oxidation which you certainly DO NOT want after fermentation (unless you
add artificial colour, of course, like all the major manufacturers do here
- - and no they don't have to declare it on the label, which is why they can
get away with it!).
The three things you must have to develop colour are AIR, TANNIN
(polyphenols) and the enzyme POLYPHENOLOXIDASE. Air is free so no problem
there, but it must get access to all parts of the pulp. The tannin comes
from the apple so the higher tannin fruit you have, the better (obviously
genuine bittersweet apples are best). The enzyme is mostly membrane-bound
on the apple pulp itself, so you mustn't filter the juice before trying to
develop colour - it must all happen at the pulp stage. Lay out the pulp in
shallow layers only an inch or two thick, and let the air get at it for say
4 hours before pressing. The higher the temperature the quicker it happens.
Turn it halfway though so everything gets brown. Then press out the pulp
and you should have got maximum colour.
But be warned, if you oxidise the pulp too much (say for 24 hours), then
the juice colour actually diminishes again because the oxidised phenolics
get tanned back onto the pulp and that's a one-way trip for them. This
effect is now used commercially in the Australian (and Californian?) wine
industries and in the manufacture of sherry in Spain, to reduce colour and
to give greater stability of the finished wine against tannin haze and
browning in bottle. It's called 'hyperoxidation' and can actually take the
colour of a juice back to almost water white if done to completion.
The problem for cidermaking is that there's no simple way of predicting
that optimum point of maximum colour before it starts to decline again..
Only experience can be your guide, and you can only get that by trying it a
few times!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
(andrew_lea@compuserve.com)
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #672, 30 June 1997
From: Mirra@aol.com
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 08:04:51 -0400 (EDT)
I've varied the color of my cider by varying
the carmel content of the sugar I add. A
white sugar produces the lightest color and
extra dark brown sugar the most, a truely
amber brew. My favorite is a golden hue,
similar to the filtered, pasturized
juice sold for breakfast drink. I achieve this
color by fortifying raw juice with light brown
sugar to yield a specific gravity of about 1.65.
I've also noticed that the speed of fermentation
effects color. A vigorious ferment using champagne
yeast at temperatures around 75 F. has less color
than a slower brewing using premier cuvee yeast and
a temperature 10 degree cooler.
Curiously, the darker the finished cider the more difficult
it is to clear. I treat all my juice the same; 1camdem tablet
and 10 drops of peptic enzyme per gallon, wait a week before
adding sugar and yeast. Consistantly, cider fortified with dark
brown sugar stays cloudy while another batch fermented from
the same juice fortified with light brown sugar will clear often with-
out the addition of finings. The only variable is the amount of
carmel in the sugar. Any explanations or speculation why this is ?
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #673
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