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Cider Digest #0694
Subject: Cider Digest #694, 19 October 1997
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #694 19 October 1997
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Cider-Weizen? (Charles Hudak)
Freezing Cider, perrry, or cyser (Tim Taylor)
Rocket fuel (Charles Hudak)
Malo-lactic fermentation (Andrew Lea)
High alcohol cider (Andrew Lea)
New to Cider (Michael Cukrow)
sweet cider ("John Kampschoer")
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Subject: Cider-Weizen?
From: Charles Hudak <cwhudak@mail.adnc.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:45:11
>A local brewer
>told me he had tried 3056 to get the flavor, and it wasn't formed. He
>speculated that 3056 needed something from the wheat malt to form
>those compounds. I am currently fermenting a gallon of cider with
>3056 and a little wheat malt, and the banana seems to be coming
>through nicely. While using 3056 from your secondary is not the same
>as from a fresh starter, please let us know if the banana/clove is
>present in the cider.
I can't comment on the banana, as I don't know what the precursor is for
isoamylacetate (banana ester). I do know, however that the clove flavor
which 3056 produces is from a compound called 4-vinylguaicol. The precursor
to this i.e. the chemical which needs to be present for this to be formed
is ferulic acid, a consituent of malted barley to be sure, but present in
very high amounts especially in wheat malt. As far as I know, there is no
ferulic acid in cider. No ferulic acid --->no 4-VG and thus no clove flavor
Charles Hudak
------------------------------
Subject: Freezing Cider, perrry, or cyser
From: Tim Taylor <tt@individual.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:37:35 -0700
According to the BATF, it is ILLEGAL (whether intentional or not) to
freeze or have frozen cider, perry, cyser or any other fermented beverage in
order to increase alcohol strength. Technically, one could forfeit
property, money, etc if caught.
As a BATF agent pointed out to me, if one is *curious* about what
might happen if something was left out, etc. the chances of detection are
slim to none. On a personal note, I would STRONGLY recommend that if anyone
were seeking information, etc on alleged methods, they do it in a secure
environment.
There has been some talk recently about relaxing several of the
BATF's policies (most dating back to that horrific period known as
Prohibition) regarding homebrew...however, they are Zealous to a fault about
anything having to do with Hard Booze (Read: Spirits).
This is the URL if anyone is interested in the BATF and/or regulations
http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/pub.htm
TT
Timothy Taylor
"Alcohol is the anesthesia by which we endure the operation of life"
George Bernard Shaw
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Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:28:00 PDT
From: "Wegeng,Donald" <Donald_Wegeng@xn.xerox.com>
Subject: Apple + Grape?
To: Cider Digest <cider@talisman.com>
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I'm planning an experiment this year, and I would be interested in
comments and suggestions. I like carbonated ciders, and it occurred
to me that an alcoholic beverage that consisted of apple cider and
white grape juices might be interesting. Unfortunately I have not been
able to find any recipes for such a beverage (perhaps this is a hint
that it's a bad combination).
So far I have two gallons of Seyval juice fermenting using montrachet
yeast. I'm planning to add up to three gallons of apple cider to
this. Does anyone have suggestions for varieties or styles of apples
that I should use, or would a normal cider blend be fine?
Thanks,
/Don
------------------------------
Subject: Rocket fuel
From: Charles Hudak <cwhudak@mail.adnc.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:55:01
I have to agree with Dick's comments regarding strong ciders. What's the
point? Are you guys looking for a cheap high? Why go to all that trouble
when you can pick up a bottle of cheap vodka for next to nothing and just
have vodka tonics?
I've seen more than a few posts lately about "getting alot of alcohol" and
I just can't understand where you guys are coming from. Personally, I'd
like less alcohol more often than not so I can have another glass of my
cider, mead, beer without getting ripped beyond functionality. One of the
best beverages I ever made was an english mild (beer) with about 1.5-2%
alcohol. It was great to be able to knock back a few pints of some
fantastic beer and not be blotto.
Trust me, that 8% cider is *twice* as strong as alot of beers and you're
probably drinking it by the pint. It'll get you plenty drunk if that's what
you're after.
Charles
------------------------------
Subject: Malo-lactic fermentation
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:34:25 -0400
Interesting discussion here on MLF. I don't have any personal experience
of inoculating with cultures (though Peter Mitchell at the Worcester
College has been studying this the last couple of years and I believe is
planning to write it up). My ciders seem to go malo-lactic all by
themselves in the spring after fermentation (just like the textbooks say!),
even though I do sulphite before fermentation (but not afterwards,
preferring to keep things topped up, anaerobic, with a continued slight
yeast presence for many months to maintain reductive conditions). It's
true that MLF will give a fizz to ciders (often without any detectable
haze, cos the bacteria are so much smaller than yeast) but equally true
that it won't break the bottles. That's because you've only got say 0.5%
of malic acid to convert to lactic and gas, which isn't very much. So (in
my experience) it's quite safe to bottle before MLF if you want to, and
hope it may occur in the bottle.
By the way, like John Bowen, I'm puzzled how Dan expects to stop his added
'sussreserve' from fermenting in storage or re-fermenting once he's
sweetened his cider!! MLF never occurs in most juices because the natural
yeast fermentation takes over far more quickly, BUT in traditional French
cider-making with really slow primary fermentations (e.g. 6 months) the
MLF can occur concurrently with the alcoholic fermentation. Many years ago
there was a Swiss system (the Boehi) for keeping fresh 'sussreserve' juice
unfermented indefinitely under high CO2 (which inhibited the yeast).
Unfortunately the MLF went on regardless, which is one reason why the
system fell out of use.
Andrew Lea
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: High alcohol cider
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:34:26 -0400
I too am very puzzled why any person should want to push the alcohol in
cider above what the apple naturally provides, which is 5 - 9% depending on
cultivar and season. The whole concept of cider just disappears if you do
that. Hint for Mr Wagler - why not forget the nuisance of the apples
entirely, and ferment just sugar or glucose syrup from a gravity of about
1.200 together with a little yeast food. That'll get you up to 15% alcohol
and then you can get quietly smashed all on your own without troubling the
rest of us!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
------------------------------
Subject: New to Cider
From: Michael Cukrow <mcukrow@nac.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 11:35:50 -0400
Greetings,
I am a relatively new homebrewer, and even a newer cidermaker. I became
interested in making beer out of curiosity and a love of beer.
Unfortunately, my fiance does not like beer, but is a big fan of cider.
As I want to share me hobby with her (not to mention I like cider as
well) I have begun make cider. With one very dry batch under my belt (I
like it quite a bit - she doesn't) I have some questions:
1) How can I make a sweet cider (can be a still cider, if that makes a
difference)?
2) What are campden tablets, and what do they do? (I have seen these in
quite a few recipes)
3) what is the benefit or result of adding frozen apple juice
concentrate to cider, in addition to apple juice?
Thank you in advance for your help!
Mike Cukrow
mcukrow@nac.net
------------------------------
Subject: sweet cider
From: "John Kampschoer" <jkampsch@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 18:35:01 PDT
I have made ~4 ciders over the last 2 years and they all are very dry I
would like to try a sweeter cider like "woodchucks Amber".any hints ? If
any one would like a taste treat try "NEW GLARES APPLE BOCK" it is very
good.
john
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End of Cider Digest #694
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