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Cider Digest #0683
Subject: Cider Digest #683, 2 September 1997
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #683 2 September 1997
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Periodical (Cider Digest #682) (Marc Montefusco)
E Coli (KROONEY@genre.com)
Re: Cider Digest #682, 27 August 1997 (joe wells)
Re: Cider Digest #682, 27 August 1997 (incider@teleport.com)
Size of home made cider market (Rod McDonald)
First Batch (David Johnson)
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Subject: Re: Cider Periodical (Cider Digest #682)
From: Marc Montefusco <mmontefusco@mmsw.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:23:43 -0400
cider-request@talisman.com wrote:
> So...what do you think about the idea of creating a small periodical
> devoted to cider and cider-making?Would it help you? Would you buy
> it? (We're talking mailed printed matterhere--the cost could be low
> but *not* free.) Would you contribute to it?
> (This is several steps above contributing to the Cider Digest; it
> means serious writing.)
I will commit to a) buying and b) writing for a cider periodical. I
have been a free-lance and salaried writer at various stages of my
existence, and am now in the process of bringing New World Cider into
being. In addition to establishing my own experimental orchard, I am
working closely with organic and traditional fruit growers here in the
Maryland counties of Frederick and Washington. I think I can offer some
useful insights and strong opinions. However, my contributions would
pale next to those of Andrew Lea, who combines an extraordinary depth of
experience with a very readable literary style, and some of the leading
lights in the cider revival. If we can secure interviews or direct
contributions from producers, importers, distributors, and marketers, we
will have a useful and necessary tool for making better cider more
readily available. Sign me up, but sign them up too!
Marc Montefusco
New World Cider
------------------------------
Subject: E Coli
From: KROONEY@genre.com
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:32:26 -0400
I am brand new to the digest; if this has been dealt with before, please
forward appropriate editions. In today's (8/27/97) New York Times there is
a big hubaloo regarding the increase of E Coli bacteria in unpasteurized
apple cider. I am a homebrewer looking to make hard cider, and am
wondering whether this is an issue. Any advice would be appreciated.
Also, how should I decide what type of cider recipe to use? For example,
is there a reference which would tell me what recipes are Woodpecker like?
or Buhlmers? etc?
Thanks,
Kevin Rooney
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #682, 27 August 1997
From: joe wells <jwells@comp.uark.edu>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:39:18 -0500
I have a question for you all, what yeasts do you use in your cider. I've
got a really good supply of juice this year, about 15 different apple
varieties to blend, and was wondering what different yeasts everyone uses.
I've had the best success with a combination of English Ale and Champagne.
joe
Joe Wells
Office of the Vice Chancellor for Finance and Administration
403 ADMN, University of Arkansas
Fayetteville, AR 72701
Phone 501-575-7679 FAX 501-575-7575 email jwells@comp.uark.edu
------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:25:49 PDT
From: "Wegeng,Donald" <Donald_Wegeng@xn.xerox.com>
Subject: RE: Cider Reference Books (and a ramble on visibility)
To: Cider Digest <cider@talisman.com>
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I don't need another introductory book on how to make cider. Any of
the previously mentioned books (or for that matter any reasonable wine
making book) would be more than adequate. I would be interested in a
more advanced book that would help me make better cider using locally
available varieties of apples.
Let me be more specific. Let's say that I own an apple press, and know
of local orchards where I can obtain ten specific varieties of apples.
How do I formulate the most optimal recipe? Is there a "style" of
cider that would most suitable for these ingredients? I've read many
books and articles that talk about "bitter sharps" and tannin and that
sort of thing, and I think I understand the basic concepts, but I have
no idea how apple variety XYZ relates to these things.
Then assuming that I can determine the most optimal blend of apples,
what about yeast? Wouldn't it make sense that choosing the best
variety of yeast might be dependent on the varieties of apples that
are used? Has anyone done any research on this?
In reality I'm probably not as bewildered as the above makes me appear.
But in all honesty, I suspect that most of the interest in English
apple varieties has more to do with the idea that "you need these to
make good cider" rather than a specific preference for English cider
(our digest moderator being an exception. :-)
I believe that our hobby will not advance to the same status and appeal
as beer and wine making without better understanding of the above. A
club, magazine, book, etc. that helps to advance the state of the art
would be very useful.
/Don
donald_wegeng@xn.xerox.com
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #682, 27 August 1997
From: incider@teleport.com
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 21:23:23 -0700
Howdy,
I would just like to address the following from the last digest:
Cider doesn't very easily ride on the coat-
>tails of homebrewing. It's a different process in a lot of ways. We share
>some of the hardware needs, but not ingredients, and homebrew shops have to
>rely on ingredients for ongoing sales and repeat customers. Is a homebrew
>shop the likely place to look for a cider book? If not (which is what I'm
>thinking), then where *would* you look for it?
In many ways cider does ride the coattails of the microbrew and homebrewing
movement and since most ciders are now marketed like beer, (in 6-packs, on
supermarket beer shelves) I think these are the most likely places to find
cider books and equipment - slowly but surely it will be added to the
inventory. Additionally, it is precisely those folks who care about making
a better beverage at home that perchance would be willing to make real
cider. In England it is the active folks at CAMRA, (Campaign for Real Ale)
that started APPLE which is striving for preservation of traditional or
"real" cider - not the crap that has been mass marketed in the U.K. and the
U.S.A. - there is good cause for alliance. The Celebrator Beer News is
already having me write a column on cider - I reviewed thirty of them in
the April/May issue and wrote about cider apples for the August/September
issue - granted it is written with beer afficionados in mind.
Also, the Malt Advocate has asked me to do an article for their January
issue - there is an active interest in this arena.
The purpose of this rambling is to say that there is interest in cider and
it is coming mainly from the microbrew community.
>> The local beer competition had cider stuck in with fruit wines this year.
>
>Here, I'd have to agree with the logic of their decision, although you're
>saying it as if cider got shunted off to the side, which I wouldn't like.
>
>Cider is made like a wine--it's the fermented juice of a fruit, possibly
>with added sugar to increase alcohol. It's not brewed, nor anything close
>to it. In those senses, it belongs with wine. Also, I think it's more
>likely that you can pick out the good, real ciders in a competition if
>you're thinking about them as wines. Mostly, I wish that the homebrewing
>world wouldn't try to pull cidermaking under its umbrella at all. It's
>just too distant.
Having ciders appear at all in beer competitions again shows that there is
sizable interest in cider - but education is essential. If not the
homebrewing world (who are apparently interested in this beverage) then
who? The assumption seems to be that people on this list would know how to
taste good cider but I've read letters from some of you folks who want to
go out and reproduce Woodchuck. Just about anything alcoholic claiming
some affiliation with the apple qualifies as cider. It doesn't matter if
there is sugar, caramel flavoring, non-fermented fruit juice, carbonated
water with corn syrup or if it is made with concentrate - it's still called
cider. How are beer folks going to know how to taste ciders if we don't
have any clear definitions or guidelines as cider devotees? This question
is not rhetorical, I actually would like an answer. Anyone?
Cezanne Miller
incider@teleport.com
------------------------------
Subject: Size of home made cider market
From: Rod.McDonald@dist.gov.au (Rod McDonald)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 13:56:46 +1000
Recent discussion has been lamenting the fact that the home made real cider
market is considerably smaller than home brewing, and this impacts on
availability of certain information and ingredients. The obvious
participants on this digest are North American, English and, to a lesser
extent Australian. Does anyone know what is happening in France where Cider
also is popular, or in Germany (in Frankfurt there is an apple wine which
appears to be simply a cider), and whether a combining of forces could be
harnessed to seek out and put pressure on suppliers internationally.
Rod McDonald
rod.mcdonald@dist.gov.au
------------------------------
Subject: First Batch
From: David Johnson <dmjalj@inwave.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 06:38:04 -0700
I started my first batch of cider yesterday. It has not started off in
the 10-12 hours that my beers usually do. Here is my proceedure so far.
I pressed juice from a mixture of apples. My early season apples
are Lubske Queen, Red Astracken, and Irish Peach. I used these in about
equal amounts. I got about 2 gals of juice. I then added 2 lbs light
brown sugar and 2 lbs dark brown sugar in 1 gal of commercial apple juice
(No preservatives). I then added enough more comercial apple juice to
make a total of 4 gals. OG 1.094 pH was 3.6 I added 10 campden tablets
(crushed).as recommended by "Sweet and Hard Cider" by Proulx & Nichols.
It sat for 24 hours before I pitched the yeast. The yeast was a mix of
belgian ale yeast and scotch ale yeast that I stepped up from slants to a
500cc starter . The unsweetened must was very appley, sweet in the
middle, with a smack at the finish. The interesting thing was a creamy
texture that I hope will carry through to the finished product.
My suspicion is that I over sulfited or I did not oxygenate the
way I usually do because I did not want to darken it too much (I
probably should have asked here first). I have dried ale and lager yeast
as well as pasteur champagne yeast on hand. How long do I wait before
giving up on my original yeasts. The book suggests that sulfited juice
may take several days to get going. Of my dried yeasts, which would be
the best to re-start things? What is the experience with champagne yeast?
I was not very happy with it in mead. But I only used it in my first
batch in which I did other things that I would not repeat(boiled the
honey, used a kit from a predominantly beer brewing source).
TIA
Dave
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End of Cider Digest #683
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