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Cider Digest #0682
Subject: Cider Digest #682, 27 August 1997
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #682 27 August 1997
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
re: Cider Reference Books (and a ramble on visibility) (Dick Dunn)
Re: Cider Digest #681, 21 August 1997 (Mark Cohen)
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Subject: re: Cider Reference Books (and a ramble on visibility)
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 22 Aug 97 01:46:45 MDT (Fri)
Derek Bisset <derek_bisset@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> You would think by now there would be some reference books on cider
> making with all the interest there appears to be in the topic.
> When I go to my local brew supply store, there is a full shelf on
> beermaking; all references within the last ten years or so and one book
> on cider: Proulx and Nichols "Sweet and Hard Cider" published in 1980 by
> Garden Way.
(I think Derek's comments, and certainly my response here, are largely
oriented toward the situation in North America. I'd really like to know
how much better or worse folks find the situations in other countries.)
You should be able to find Paul Correnty's book, _The_Art_of_Cidermaking_.
And, although I'm not a fan of it myself, Jo Deal's book has started to
appear in more shops.
But I must ask...do we really need more books? From the practical stand-
point, that question has to do with whether we're really missing a lot of
information by the lack of books. (Personally, I'd like more info than I
can find...not a lot more, but I'm sure there's another book's worth of
material waiting to be written for us.) From a sort of marketing perspec-
tive, you might challenge Derek's first assumption: Usually if you've got
an interesting (or especially, a trendy) topic, publishers start coming out
of the woodwork soliciting manuscripts because they want a piece of the
action. If that's not the case, are people like Derek and myself deluding
ourselves that the interest is really there? (I don't know!)
But I see another problem: Cider doesn't very easily ride on the coat-
tails of homebrewing. It's a different process in a lot of ways. We share
some of the hardware needs, but not ingredients, and homebrew shops have to
rely on ingredients for ongoing sales and repeat customers. Is a homebrew
shop the likely place to look for a cider book? If not (which is what I'm
thinking), then where *would* you look for it?
And who'd write such a book? Do you know of cider makers or aficionados
who've also got the inclination and writing skill? Are there folks on this
list who might be up to it? (Andrew?:-)
> There are yeasts available in the store for beermaking by the dozen and
> none for cider. Wyeast, Oregon liquid yeast supplier, has recommendations
> out for winemaking and beermaking but nothing for cider.
But if cider-makers often use natural yeasts, that knocks a chunk out of
the market. It would be hard to turn a large enough volume to justify
liquid yeasts with their limited shelf lives, especially with the very
seasonal nature of cider-making. Turning to dry yeasts, we're stuck with
the same choices as mead-makers: Grab a beer or wine yeast and give it a
shot. It comes down not to having specific cider yeasts as much as not
having recommendations on the existing yeasts relevant to cider. (I can
get on a real rant about the pathetic state of labeling of yeasts,
especially dry yeasts. We need freshness dating, identification of the
strain [not just a brand name or code], attenuative properties, alcohol
tolerance, preferred temperature range, and indication of suitability for
mead, melomel, and cider. The information could be easily provided if
the manufacturers cared.)
> The local beer competition had cider stuck in with fruit wines this year.
Here, I'd have to agree with the logic of their decision, although you're
saying it as if cider got shunted off to the side, which I wouldn't like.
Cider is made like a wine--it's the fermented juice of a fruit, possibly
with added sugar to increase alcohol. It's not brewed, nor anything close
to it. In those senses, it belongs with wine. Also, I think it's more
likely that you can pick out the good, real ciders in a competition if
you're thinking about them as wines. Mostly, I wish that the homebrewing
world wouldn't try to pull cidermaking under its umbrella at all. It's
just too distant.
> No one appears to be producing apples for cider makers.
There's a serious difficulty...and it seems to me that we need *that* -
some way of getting real cider apples or juice into shops - more than we
need another book or even better yeast identification.
There's two problems behind this. First, you've got to find the sources
for cider apples, and second, you've got to find a way to get the apples or
the juice to cider-makers who can't grow their own.
> Any ideas on getting cider makers heard and their needs met as well as
> brewers have done?
As far as I know, there's no organization for cider-makers analogous to the
AHA for homebrewers or the (now-reviving) AMA for mead-makers. I don't
know of any periodicals either, while homebrewing has at least 3 major ones
in the US. (Again, this is *all* US-biased.) A visible organization and
some written material would go a long way.
Starting an organization (association, whatever you call it) is tough if
you don't have a big knot of people in one place to get together and keep
pushing it. Creating a nationwide or worldwide organization is just too
hard if you're starting with scattered individuals, no matter how many.
A periodical is much easier to start: You start it as an irregular
newsletter, and let it grow and become regular as appropriate. It is
suited to a distributed audience and distributed contributors...it's the
way the whole process of submit/edit/print/publish has worked for a long
time. I admit, I'm also biased in this direction because I've lived in and
around the edge of printing/publishing for some time. I've thought for
a while about the idea of starting a small publication devoted to real
cider making, so I guess this is as good a time as any to toss the idea
out and see what anybody else thinks of it. So...what do you think about
the idea of creating a small periodical devoted to cider and cider-making?
Would it help you? Would you buy it? (We're talking mailed printed matter
here--the cost could be low but *not* free.) Would you contribute to it?
(This is several steps above contributing to the Cider Digest; it means
serious writing.)
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd, domain talisman.com Boulder County, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #681, 21 August 1997
From: Mark Cohen <bigmark@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 17:01:09 -0400
Derek Bisset <derek_bisset@bc.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>You would think by now there would be some reference books on cider
>making with all the interest there appears to be in the topic.
I have 4 cider books in front of me:
1. The aforementioned "Sweet & Hard Cider" by Annie Proulux & Lew Nichols
(1980) - Garden Way Publishing, VT
- nice, more on traditional cider-making - ie. "Apples for Cider",
"The Home Cider Orhard"
- some interesting info on the history of cider and on making applejack
2. "Making Cider" by Jo Deal (1976) - G.W. Kent, Inc., Ann Arbor, MI
- a lot of cider making recipes and cooking with apples and cider
3. "The American Cider book" by Vrest Orton (1973) - North Point Press, NY
- a great read on the history of cider, especially in America
- again lots of cooking with cider recipes
4. "The Art of Cidermaking" by Paul Correnty (1995) - Brewers Publications,
Boulder, CO
- a great and very recent book by a national cider expert
- I've had good and bad luck with many of his recipes, such as
Peachy Cider, Robust Cyser, and Apple Beer
- a really great and simple book
>There are yeasts available in the store for beermaking by the dozen and
>none for cider. Wyeast, Oregon liquid yeast supplier, has recommendations
>out for winemaking and beermaking but nothing for cider.
I agree! What's the deal - I realize we're a small group compared to
wine-makers and brewers, but you'd think there'd be at least ONE option
available. I've discussed this with the Wyeast labs, as I've had good
success with their sweet mead yeast.
Perhaps if we joined together, we could convince them to market a cider
yeast or at least recommend certain strains.
Cheers -
- -Mark Cohen-
- -------------------------------------------
"The life of a Repo Man is always intense."
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End of Cider Digest #682
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