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Cider Digest #0616
Subject: Cider Digest #616, 3 October 1996
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #616 3 October 1996
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Preservatives In Cider (Dan F. Jeska)
Re: newbie questions ("Gene R. Rankin")
grape tannins (Greg Appleyard)
Copper and Cider (Greg Kushmerek)
"Off" flavors in cider batches (Scot Crispin)
advanced cider (Pickleman)
Overfermenting (yeast bite?) (again) (Michael Vezie)
Re: Cider Digest #615, 30 September 1996 (William J. Rhyne)
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Subject: Preservatives In Cider
From: djeska@sojourn.com (Dan F. Jeska)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:26:12 -0400
I am going to attempt making some hard cider this fall. What I would like to
know is:
What experiences does this group have with using cider with preservatives,
specifically sorbates? I have purchased preservative-free cider for my first
attempt, but I would like to know if any of you have had success with cider
that has preservatives in it.
D.F. Jeska, P.E.
E-Mail: djeska@sojourn.com
Voice: 517-788-3911
Fax: 517-788-3003
Commonwealth Associates Inc.
Engineers-Consultants-Construction Managers
P.O. Box 1124
Jackson, Michigan 49204
------------------------------
Subject: Re: newbie questions
From: "Gene R. Rankin" <grankin@itis.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:30:19 -0600
On 30 Sep 96 at 11:23, Eddie wrote:
> I'm sort of new to brewing, and because [gasp!] I don't
> particularly care for beer, I am trying my hand at cider and
> mead. I have 2 gallons of cider going right now, one with
> champagne yeast and one using ale yeast to see what the
> differences will be when they finish. I expect the champagne
> yeast to be higher in alcohol and to be dry ( I added 2.5 cups
> of cane sugar before pitching the yeast) while the ale yeast I
> hope will be lower in alcohol and slightly sweet ( even though
> I added no sugar to this batch). Both started as gallon
> containers of 100% apple juice w/no preservatives I got at the
> supermarket.
>
> I just wanted to know if anyone else had attempted anything
> similar and if the results had turned out well. As of today the
> champagne yeast batch has a strong alcohol smell while the ale
> yeast still smells strongly of apples.
>
Well, I bought a bunch of unpreserved, unfiltered plastic jugs of
"cider" from a local orchard, gave it champagne yeast, and got VERY
turbid results from the primary fermenter. I added pectin, a touch
of white sugar, and put it up in Grolsch bottles. It precipitated
out ALL the solids, making a gorgeous, well-carbonated straw-colored
fluid that was VERY alcoholic (about 7%, if my math is right),
tasting little of apples. I was shooting for something like the
cider one gets in England (my wife doesn't like very hoppy beers),
and got something I didn't quite expect. I posted a note to this
list reporting on it, asking what I got; the answer came back:
cider, of course, just the kind that gets you very drunk very
quickly. I also put a gallon jug in the fridge & let it alone to do
its own thing. Got cider there, too, but the wild yeasts produced a
less-drinkable result.
Gene R. Rankin / grankin@itis.com
------------------------------
Subject: grape tannins
From: Greg Appleyard <GAPPLEYARD@EM.AGR.CA>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:38:37 -0400
Re: grape tannin, how much?
I would have to agree with the comments made in the last digest by D.
Prescott. Powdered grape tannin is powerful stuff. It is far better to err on
the side of caution because too much grape tannin will cause your cider to
taste like a 2 by 4.
I would go with 1/8th tsp per 5 gallons and see if you like the taste. The
idea of starting with a quart of cider was a good one but I wonder if you
want to add the tannin before or after fermenting.
I have always added the tannin prior to fermenting and I would think it
difficult to judge the effect of added tannin in fresh juice on the final
fermented drink.
Greg
------------------------------
Subject: Copper and Cider
From: gwk@world.std.com (Greg Kushmerek)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:37:54 -0400
Seeing the posts on stainless, I was wondering if it would be OK to
use my immersion chiller to cool down cider (I want to kill yeast
without using sulphur)?
Cheers,
- --gk
------------------------------
Subject: "Off" flavors in cider batches
From: Scot Crispin <scrispin@shore.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 08:16:56 -0400
I have been making cider for 4-5 years now and I have a consistent =
problem. I get a "fruity?" (hard to define) taste/smell in the batches. =
It is most noticable when I first open a bottle. The smell dissipates =
after a couple minutes but some of the taste remains. It is slight =
enough that most people do not notice but since I drink quite a bit of =
hard cider I do. I have only tried other commerical ciders, not anyone =
else's homebrewed varieties. The result is that I do not know if this is =
endemic to homemade hard cider or if it is something in my process.
In my batches I have used a wide variety of apples. I usually add some =
acid blend and grape tannin if the mix is not tart enough. I have used =
Red Star Champagne yeast but I now have switched to Epenary II or Wyeast =
Ale yeasts. Low acid blends tend to have this smell/taste moreso but =
even high acid blends have it to some degree. It seems to me that my =
second batches that are put down in November are better than the earlier =
ones put down in September. My basement is in the mid sixties before =
winter sets in. I have wondered if this is too warm. My guess is that =
either I am being too picky or I am experiencing some other process in =
my cider such as the yeast autolyzing. The problem is subtle enough and =
I am not experienced enough to make any definitive call on this. Any =
comments are welcome.
------------------------------
Subject: advanced cider
From: Pickleman <wrp2@axe.humboldt.edu>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 18:12 -0700 (PDT)
Heya,
I am on my 4th batch of cider. I just pitched the starter, and I
know the time to adjust the must is now. I have reserved some juice for
testing. I've read that pH of juice is usually 2.9-3.3, so I couldn't
see added gypsum or CaCO3 for that reason. I have an acid test kit, and
think I'm now ready to use it. The kit has recommended levels of acid
for different wines, but this cider will only be about 6% alc. Should I
raise the acid level to .60% as it suggests for fruit wine? I would like
this cider to be as sweet as possible. How do I add CaCO3 to the cider?
The Pickleman
..I dress this way so that nobody will ever ask,
"Excuse me, but do you work here?"
------------------------------
Subject: Overfermenting (yeast bite?) (again)
From: Michael Vezie <mlv@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 08:56:43 -0400
>Subject: over fermenting (yeast bite?)
>From: "Michael L. Vezie" <mlv@pobox.com>
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 10:23:10 -0400 (EDT)
>
>Is it possible to over-ferment cider, and thus get a yeast bite?
>My guess is that if you're using a low alcohol-tolerance yeast
>(like a lager yeast), it's not, because the yeast will stop
>fermenting, not because it runs out of sugar, but because there
>is too much alcohol.
I didn't get any answer to this, so I'm sending it again...
In Christ,
michael
=============================================
= Michael Vezie, dv@best.com, mlv@pobox.com =
=============================================
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #615, 30 September 1996
From: rhyne@pop.winterlan.com (William J. Rhyne)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 08:45:59 -0700
RE: Maceration and tannin
This is Bill Rhyne from Sonoma Cyder (a nano-cidery..smaller than micro).
We have been reading from an English translation of a French cider making
manual written by Warcollier. In France, maceration of milled apple pulp
was a common practice but it is a labor intensive practice so some cideries
have skipped.
The maceration time can vary from 12-24 hours depending on the kind of
fruit that one has. Also, an apple with high tannin levels should not be
exposed to air during this process as it will oxidise (sp?) and it will
result in loss of tannin in the final cider.
One of the main reasons maceration is performed is to increase the yield.
During maceration, the broken tissues progressively soften, a proportion of
cells die, and the cell fluids are released.
We tried it last year with some pippins and some golden delicious. The
pippins have a lot more tannin than the golden delicious, they keeved well,
and they had plenty of acid. The juice was very clear. The Goldens had less
tannin (less discoloration when exposed to air), did not keeve or clarify
as well, but they had plenty of sugar, a nice aroma, and tasted pretty
good. The Golden juice was very hazy but pretty. We blended it with the
pippins in different proportions and a 60%golden/40%pippin blend with
residual sweetness tasted excellent.
This year, we are trying a batch of Greening apples and then we are going
to purchase more varieties that are available here in Sonoma to evaluate
their cider characteristics.
To summarize Warcollier's writings in this area, to make good cider you
need high sugar, acid, and tannin, and maceration helps the different
parts of the apple get to know each other before going to press.
Aloha!
Bill Rhyne
===========================
Callie Konno
===========================
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End of Cider Digest #616
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