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Cider Digest #0652
Subject: Cider Digest #652, 11 March 1997
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #652 11 March 1997
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #651, 7 March 1997 (Mirra@aol.com)
High alcohol cider - Open reply to Kathy Hutchins (Andrew LEA)
apple jack (Marcel Fortin)
E-coli 0157H in ciders (Andrew LEA)
nail polish remover ("Jay Hersh aka Dr. Beer (SM)")
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #651, 7 March 1997
From: Mirra@aol.com
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 05:37:59 -0500 (EST)
Since Ms. Hutchins has re-opened this thread of "let cider be cider" I would
like to add these comments. My light reading of the history of cider making
on this side of the pond reveals the practice of
fortifying the apple juice with all kinds of sweet-
eners was very prevailent especially during the colonial
era. Whereas we of the southern land grants
demonstrated our low moral character with fiddling,
dancing and horse racing, our brethern in the north-
east were adding raisins, honey and even sugar to in-
crease the alcohol content of their cider. Schemes
to export this adulterated, :>), brew to the mother
country by shipping it through a Spanish port and
marketting as mountain wine have been exposed.
This is not to say that Notheasterns were drunks and
cheats. It most likely has to do with the varieties of apples
available for cider making at the time. Cider making then as
now was a cottage industry and the frontier enviornment favored
apple cultivars that were disease resistant, heavy producers and
stored (dried) well. Then as now few had access to real cider apples.
Because the juice I use for cider is pressed from varieties of apples
grown for todays retail market I add sugar, tannin and adjust the acidity.
Preparing my juice for fermentation is alot like wine making but the finished
product is still cider not apple wine. I envy Mr. Lea for having a source
of real cider apples and enjoying a climate that favors a traditional ENGLISH
brewing technique. But there is no one true cider that is the standard that
all ciders shall be judged against. Brew to suit your tastes !
------------------------------
Subject: High alcohol cider - Open reply to Kathy Hutchins
From: Andrew LEA <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:41:26 -0500
If you check back my original posting you'll see that it was critical of
ANY high-alcohol ciders, not just the Americans. In fact I specifically
took a shot at the UK industry which for years now has been making these
high alcohol low juice 'white ciders' which are intended for
unsophisticated teenagers who want to get smashed quickly. I have long
believed that they drag down the whole concept of 'cider' and my point was
that I hoped you people could avoid following the same sad road!
I know exactly why the commercial people do it, but I still can't generally
see why anyone making cider for pleasure would want to push up the alcohol
levels further than what the apple naturally provides (except in a very
poor summer). However, I take Kathy's point that if you only have limited
storage capacity you can make it go further that way (assuming you drink
less of it at a sitting, of course!). At the end of the day I guess it's
all about whatever people want to enjoy!
Andrew.
------------------------------
Subject: apple jack
From: Marcel Fortin <fortin@unixg.ubc.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 17:37:10 PST
"Their uninhibited pleasure in drinking led the colonists
to make still other beverages. In New England and the Middle colonies
apple brandy was a by-product of cider making. Sometimes it was
distilled, but an easier way was to expose cider to freezing weather,
then remove the surface ice as it formed, leaving the remainder of higher
alcoholic content"*
Anyone ever tried this frozen 'brandy' method?
*p.37 Hooker, RJ. Food and drink in America : a history. Indianapolis:
Bobbs-Merrill, c1981.
SUBJECTS: Food habits - United States - History.
Drinking behavior - History - United States.
Food habits - History - United States.
Drinking customs - United States - History.
Marcel Fortin
fortin@unixg.ubc.ca
------------------------------
Subject: E-coli 0157H in ciders
From: Andrew LEA <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:17:19 -0500
I've had so many people ask me just recently whether this new virulent
strain of E-coli will survive in hard cider and I really didn't know. Well
I've been asking around and I've also just come across the abstract of a
paper from the Dept of Food Science at the University of Tennesee. It's in
Journal of Food Protection Volume 59 part 12 pages 1256-1259 (1996) if
anyone wants to look up the full citation. These authors conclude as
follows:
>> Results of this study indicate that E.coli 0157H is capable of survival
in fresh apple >>cider at 20 degrees C, while alcoholic fermentation of
fresh cider is an effective means >>of destroying this pathogen.
I've also just heard of some private and unpublished work from people I
respect within the UK cider industry which comes to exactly the same
conclusions.
But please make no mistake about it, this 'new' pathogen is a killer and it
WILL survive and even multiply in fresh apple juice (as several studies
from Univ Wisconsin and Cornell have now shown), compared to 'normal'
E-coli. So we simply can't be too careful. I used to sit on the fence a
bit about pasteurising fresh apple juice, but now I'm prepared to stand up
and be counted - pasteurisation of fresh juice for retail sale is an
absolute MUST!!
Andrew Lea
------------------------------
Subject: nail polish remover
From: "Jay Hersh aka Dr. Beer (SM)" <drbeer@doctorbeer.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 19:36:00 -0500 (EST)
not to be contrary but nail polish remover was once made of acetone, though
a quick look in the bathroom shows this no longer seems to be the case.
Ethyl acetate at least in the quantities found in beer and cider when
naturally produced as a fermentation by product is typically described as
smelling like green apples. Amyl Acetate is typically described as a banana
aroma/flavor.
Acetone is however described as smelling solvent like and is also said to be
produced in fermentation, and is typically deemed an inappropriate
aroma/flavor so that could alo be a possibility.
As you said, flavor chemistry at a distance is difficult. The original
poster might wish to try doctoring some store bought ciders with some over
the counter type products and comparing the doctored ones side by side with
undoctored samples to try to recreate the aromas and/or better train their
sense of smell. My web page has some information underneath this which can
help you get started http://www.tiac.net/users/drbeer/homepage.htm
Possibly this can help the person learn some more and diagnose the problem.
Otherwise they could consider entering a BJCP competition where judges with
some training and experience might be able to offer some advice.
Information about the BJCP can also be found from a pointer on my web page.
Good luck,
Jay
>Subject: Nail Polish Remover Smell!
>From: Andrew LEA <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
>Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 16:46:05 -0500
>
>
>Flavour Chemistry at a distance is next to impossible, but I'll give it a
>try! What Mark describes is similar to the aroma of ethyl or amyl acetate
>(which latter is nail polish remover). Both these are esters which are
>produced naturally by the yeast during cider making but at high levels they
>are no longer desirable and can have an objectionable character. High
>temperature fermentation (I regard 65 F as high!) for a long time could
>quite likely increase them to well over the acceptable threshold.
>
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End of Cider Digest #652
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