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Cider Digest #0654
Subject: Cider Digest #654, 24 March 1997
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #654 24 March 1997
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Thin Cider (Steve Butts)
High Alcohol / E coli (Andrew LEA)
Full -bodied and thin cider (Derek Bisset)
Re: High alcohol cider, apple jack, and E-coli 0157H in ciders (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Thin Cider
From: Steve Butts <Stephen.J.Butts@lawrence.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 08:31:32 -0600 (CST)
Folks --
This is in response to Ernie Sargent, who feels he has watery cider:
Well, maybe you do. But what I think is more likely is that you've caught your
cider at its low point. One is easily seduced by high-quality, carefully
chosen fresh must simply because it's so much better than the usual crud that's
blended as apple juice. After most of the fermentation, the cider is of course
far less "fat" than the fresh must, and does indeed taste very closed and in
some cases harsh.
I've found that things usually improve considerably with a good amount of
bottle age -- at least six months, and better a year. Since you have
apparently done everything right, I suggest that you bottle and postpone your
enjoyment, and predict that you will be very pleasantly surprised when you pop
a bottle open around next September or so. And with the level of sugar you
report in the must, I wouldn't do any artificial carbonation: the cider will
quite probably do that all by itself, and if so, will do it a whole lot better
than fancy equipment will.
Whatever you decide to do to most of your cider, why not bottle and cap a 6-
pack or so and just let it sit to see what happens? Works for me.
- -- Steve Butts
stephen.j.butts@lawrence.edu
------------------------------
Subject: High Alcohol / E coli
From: Andrew LEA <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 17:06:41 -0500
Well I do seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest in Digest #653! Here's a
few more observations:
Ciders at 5 - 6% alcohol keep just fine for a couple of years or more so
long as they're properly stored - they certainly don't NEED to be at 9% or
more for that!. The most important thing is to keep out the air, either in
bottle or in well-sealed cask. That way you won't allow in any
acetobacter, film yeasts or moulds, and those that are there already won't
be able to grow due to lack of air. So, if 5% alcohol is all your apples
are giving you, then why not live with it?
As for E.coli I absolutely agree with Terry and Dick that good orchard
practice and sanitary food handling practices are most important and need
all the encouragement they can get. [In recent years our Ministry of
Agriculture has come down really heavily on this aspect due to high levels
of patulin, and many small apple juice producers have had to bite the
bullet and invest in grading and washing facilities which they never
bothered with before.] However, the history of the US apple juice
industry is sadly littered with food poisoning outbreaks from juice which
is poorly made and then sold unpasteurised. In the UK and Europe we've
escaped this because unlike you we don't have a tradition of fresh apple
cider, and all our apple juice (bar a tiny fractional percentage) is sold
pasteurised and always has been (for the last 80 years, at least) . Now,
when it was just Salmonella and less virulent strains of E coli that were
involved, I would have regarded pasteurisation as an option which was
sensible but not essential. But now we have a killer strain around, I've
changed my mind. I'll admit my opinion is coloured by the fact that here
in Britain we've had 19 people die since December from the world's worst E
coli 0157H outbreak (a dubious distinction, I fear)! OK this was from
cooked meats which are much higher risk than apple juice, but nonetheless
it points out the potential dangers. And I think I'm right in saying you've
now had three E coli outbreaks in the US and Canada associated with apple
juice in the last ten years.
I accept the point that if pasteurisation is seen as a palliative it can
also be used as a smokescreen to hide bad handling practice. But how can
you ensure that producers WILL grade and wash their fruit thoroughly? At
least with pasteurisation you have a back stop, a mechanism for ensuring
that if contaminated fruit does enter the chain, its effects are not passed
on to the consumer. And if the consumer himself contaminates the final
product, well at least the producer has taken all responsible steps for his
part and can demonstrate to the authorities that he's done so.
[Incidentally Dick, there's at least one report claiming that E coli 0157H
grows faster in juice at 4C than at 20C!]
At the end of the day it's all about risks vs benefits. Personally I've
never seen the attraction of unpasteurised juice anyway (horrible brown and
murky stuff!), and I'd much rather have a well made juice with ascorbate
added and pasteurised in pack (fresh and fruity and delicious!). That
process incidentally was invented in Geneva NY but has only really been
commercialised in the UK and latterly in Germany and Switzerland. I know
you won't agree with my low opinion of 'fresh apple cider' but then I don't
like Hershey bars either! This is where cultural preferences enter the
argument and it's interesting that Dick brings up the point about
unpasteurised cheeses -many people in continental Europe (but not generally
in the UK) are prepared to run the risk of serious (even deadly) food
poisoning by eating soft cheeses made from unpasteurised milk precisely
because it's a part of their cultural heritage! And at this point I'm
going to stop!!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Full -bodied and thin cider
From: Derek Bisset <derek_bisset@bc.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:32:58 -0800
re: "thin bodied cider"
I believe that the main factor affecting body in a cider, aside from a
possible fault in the cider making such as having a mycoderma
infection,is the use of a range of apples of different varieties in
making the cider.
I am comparing three ciders I made at different times last fall with
different apples each having a different body, from thin to full bodied.I
like the fruitiness and acid bite of the earliest made cider.It is light
and refreshing. But the best cider made late is very full bodied with
mouth feel coming from the tannin in cider varieties.
The tannin gives a satisfying feeling in the mouth rather than a taste on
the tongue.
The first cider I have made from mainly dessert varieties,
Orenco,Belle de Boskoop, Cox's Orange Pippin is appley and flavourful,
even crisp with an acidic bite but it lacks fullness.On the other hand
the cider made with Dabinett,Yarlington Mill and Michelin added to the
dessert apple juice even looks full bodied. It seems almost oily in the
glass , with legs like a good wine. It is almost too tannic and would be
better blended with the more acidic dessert apples to give a balanced
cider.
These are very strong tastes and not everyone likes them.
I understand that cider makers in the past have used these qualities
of acidity and tannin to protect the cider while it was in storage in
times when equipment and facilities made storage more difficult. They
must have come to appreciate the taste and prize the apples which
provided them. I can understand that the taste for these qualities may be
disappearing and we have become habituated to a different drink in modern
times. I have heard one commercial cidermaker say that he cannot sell
cider of the type his grandfather made although he still has the
apple varieties to make it.
It is exciting to see many modern cider makers feeling that a
cider needs "something more" and are seeking to rediscover the range of
tastes possible in ciders.
Probably the most significant way to make improvements in cider body,
aroma, refreshing acidity and other elements of taste is to extend the
range of varieties of apple used to make ciders. The addition of juice
from a hedgerow crabapple noone would choose to eat might be all it takes
to perk up a juice made from modern dessert apples.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: High alcohol cider, apple jack, and E-coli 0157H in ciders
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 24 Mar 97 12:04:44 MST (Mon)
tbradsha@zoo.uvm.edu (Terry Bradshaw) wrote (one point in a longer article):
> 1)One of the main reasons for increasing the alcohol content of cider is to
> extend storage life...
> ...Many apples in many years simply do not contain enough sugar
> in them to provide for a good end alcohol level. I see nothing wrong with
> "spiking" the sugar level in order to achieve higher alcohol level.
Andrew Lea's original point seems to have been lost here. He was writing
(back in digest 641) against the practice of making very high alcohol
ciders by boosting the gravity with a lot of sugar. The example which
provoked his comments had 12% alc v/v. It's pretty clear that you don't
need to push the alcohol anywhere near that high to get preservative
qualities. I can't see that you'd need to go much beyond 6% to get a cider
that would keep well.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd at talisman.com Boulder County, Colorado USA
...Simpler is better.
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End of Cider Digest #654
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