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Cider Digest #0615
Subject: Cider Digest #615, 30 September 1996
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #615 30 September 1996
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Stainless Steel Kegs ("Flinsch, Alex")
Fermenting on the skins (Kelly Jones)
Stainless Steel Kegs ("Pamela J. Day")
Stainless steel and tanin (Kurt Schilling)
Re: Cider Digest #614, 25 September 1996 (Brian Dixon)
Newbie looking for suggestions (ejmoone@CCGATE.HAC.COM)
Cider in Clear Bottles (Andrew LEA)
Cider in Steel Kegs (Andrew LEA)
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Subject: Stainless Steel Kegs
From: "Flinsch, Alex" <aflinsch@njebmail.njeb.att.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 13:25:00 EDT
in #614 Ernie Sargent asked about putting cider into stainless steel kegs
I put up a batch of cider into a keg early this year (Jan or Feb). It was
finally
finished in late August of this year. There was no problem with any metallic
taste.
Alex
------------------------------
Subject: Fermenting on the skins
From: Kelly Jones <kejones@ptdcs2.intel.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 10:39:50 -0700
As you are probably aware, the standard procedure for producing
full-bodied, tannic red wines is to ferment the crushed fruit for
several days on the skins before pressing. This results in better
extraction of tannins, color, and fermentables, and has sometimes been
claimed to produce more varietal character in the wine.
My question is, would this method not provide the same advantages in
cider making? Why do we press immediately after crushing, minimizing
skin contact time? Has anyone tried this technique? This would seem
especially beneficial given the fact that many of the apples available
today are lacking in tannic character.
Any thoughts?
Kelly
Hillsboro, OR
------------------------------
Subject: Stainless Steel Kegs
From: "Pamela J. Day" <DAY@A1.TCH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:29:35 EST
I have "kegged" my last two batches of cider and have found that they
impart no mettallic taste whatsoever. Neither batch sat for any real
amount of time in a keg though. I keep it in a glass carboy until I
have an excuse to invite a bunch of people over - then it gets kegged &
force carbonated - then it gets consumed, all within about 72 hours.
Pam Oakman
------------------------------
Subject: Stainless steel and tanin
From: Kurt Schilling <kurt@pop.iquest.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 96 14:39 EST
Howdy do, folks!
In CD614, Ernie Sargent asked about the safety of using stainless steel kegs
for his cider. Not a problem. The 304 or 306 SS that is used in cornie kegs
is basically inert to beverages leaching anything out of the metal. The only
possible problem might come from the rubber 0-rings leaching beer flavors
into the cider. But I think that this is a very minor risk.
- ---------
John Gilmour also asked about the amount of grape tannin to use in his
ciders. I'd suggest starting with 1 tsp per five gallons. If that is not
enough, you can add more.
- ---------
Now a question of my own. About 3 weeks ago, I started a batch of cider
using a Belgain Wit yeast strain from YKCO in MI. Has anyone else tired
this approach? If so, what results did the Wit yeast give you? This batch is
only 3 gallons so I won't cry too much if I have created a monster. Base
cider was 2.5 gal fresh aromatic juice, one can Granny Smith concentrate, 2
cups dark brown sugar, 1 tsp tannin, 1.5 tsp nutrient, 1/2 tsp yeast
ghosts/hulls/ and 1/2 tsp yeastex 61. O.G. 1.064. Added antifoam to carboy
to prevent excessive foaming thru the airlock.
- -----------
I traded a couple of bottles of Barrel Cider to an orchardist the week
before last for a bushel of crab apples. I'll press the crabs and use the
cider over the next few months in other ciders. Just goes to show that if
you're willing ot share some of the goodies, you can get some in return.
Kurt Schilling
Anderson IN
e-mail: kurt@iquest.net
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #614, 25 September 1996
From: Brian Dixon <briand@hpcvsgen.cv.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 96 14:18:20 PDT
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: grape tannin
> From: John B Gilmour <jbgilm@malthus.morton.wm.edu>
> Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 11:07:23 -0400 (EDT)
>
>
> The raw apple cider I can get most easily is lacking in tannin. I bought
> a small container of grape tannin at a wine and beer making store. Does
> anyone know how much powdered grape tannin to add to five gallons of
> cider to perk it up without ruining it?
>
> Thanks, John Gilmour
>
I just read a book (can't remember the title..I'm at work) about making
cider and adjusting the flavor balance (sweetness, acidity, and tannin)
by either blending juices or adding powdered tannins and powdered
acid (malic I believe). The author recommended making up about a
quart of the juice, then making your additions to that, taste testing
as you go. I don't believe there's an easy way to actually measure
(for us at home) the level of tannins in the juice, but maybe one of
the wine makers in the group can discuss that more. In any case, the
author recommended starting with the quart of juice, then adjusting
it FIRST for tannins. The way to do that is, a) if reduction is
necessary then you blend in eating-apple juice (sweeter/blander), or
b) if increasing is necessary you blend in high-tannin apple juice or
add powdered tannin to taste, being watchful for that 'astringincy'
taste. After adjusting for tannin content, then you adjust the
acid/sour content (similar way). You should be doing careful
measurements of your additions all along, then scale them up to your
full-batch (5 gallon) size and adjust the batch last. Check the
pH and original gravity, adjust as appropriate, and ferment as
always. If the additions are small, consider making a larger test
volume to bring down the possible measurement error in your test
additions. Taste test the full batch as a final check.
Brian
------------------------------
From: lprescot@sover.net
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 05:52:03 -0400 (EDT)
In the most recent issue:
"The raw apple cider I can get most easily is lacking in
tannin. I bought
a small container of grape tannin at a wine and beer making
store. Does
anyone know how much powdered grape tannin to add to five
gallons of
cider to perk it up without ruining it?
Thanks, John Gilmour"
In my experience, grape tannin is VERY powerful stuff. I used
1/4 teaspoon in a five-gallon batch of blueberry mead and it
has been a predominant feature in the mix. Personaly, I'm not
sure I would add it to a cider (anyone else?) but if I did I
would keepi it to about 1/8 teaspoon.
Good Luck!
David Prescott, Shaftsbury, Vermont
------------------------------
Subject: Newbie looking for suggestions
From: ejmoone@CCGATE.HAC.COM
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 14:35:01 PST
I'm sort of new to brewing, and because [gasp!] I don't particularly
care for beer, I am trying my hand at cider and mead. I have 2 gallons
of cider going right now, one with champagne yeast and one using ale
yeast to see what the differences will be when they finish. I expect
the champagne yeast to be higher in alcohol and to be dry ( I added
2.5 cups of cane sugar before pitching the yeast) while the ale yeast
I hope will be lower in alcohol and slightly sweet ( even though I
added no sugar to this batch). Both started as gallon containers of
100% apple juice w/no preservatives I got at the supermarket.
I just wanted to know if anyone else had attempted anything similar
and if the results had turned out well. As of today the champagne
yeast batch has a strong alcohol smell while the ale yeast still
smells strongly of apples.
Thanks for any help or suggestions!
Eddie
------------------------------
Subject: Cider in Clear Bottles
From: Andrew LEA <101750.3071@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 07:58:22 -0400
A few commercial UK ciders are currently bottled in clear glass and so are
some of my own - just depends on what I've got around at the time, and I've
not noticed any difference between clear and brown - though of course no
bottled beverage should ever be stored in direct sunlight! All our Long
Ashton experimental ciders were bottled in clear half-pints but admittedly
they lay in a dim (but by no means lightproof) cellar. The off-flavour of
'sunstruck' beers is all to do with the generation of certain volatile
sulphur compounds by photo-oxidation - these ultimately arise from
sulphur-containing amino-acids in the barley. Apples are notoriously low
in ANY sulphur-containing species, amino-acids included, so the same
reactions are most unlikely to occur in ciders to any significant extent.
Certainly I have never heard of it as a cause of flavour defects in cider.
The biggest current packaging-induced taint in UK commercial cider is
caused by aluminium in cans which are not properly lacquered (hardly likely
to concern small cidermakers!).
Andrew Lea
------------------------------
Subject: Cider in Steel Kegs
From: Andrew LEA <101750.3071@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 07:58:24 -0400
This should give no problem as long as the right grade of steel is used
(Food Grade stainless 304 or 316). Cider is no more acidic than white
wine. At Long Ashton we did many fermentations in stainless Cornelius
pressure vessels (the sort that are used for holding cola syrups etc.)
without problems, and I still use some of these for holding my own ciders
under natural CO2 pressure in store. But you MUST avoid mild steel and
nearly all other metals other than food grade stainless! Apart from the
acidity problem, cider tannins can react with traces of free iron, copper
and aluminium to give darkening, hazes, and metallic off flavours!
Andrew Lea
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #615
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