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Cider Digest #0624
Subject: Cider Digest #624, 10 November 1996
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #624 10 November 1996
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
re: Cider yeasts (Dick Dunn)
Re: Cider Yeasts (Brian Dixon)
Increasing Fermentable Sugars (Kathy Hutchins)
non-ruined cider (Steve Butts)
E Coli and cider (Kelly Jones)
Re: Cider Digest #623, 5 November 1996 (Ron Kline)
Cider making (Ted Alway)
Best commercially available apple juice for cider and the best yeast? (jean_mi
chel@juno.com)
E. coli again (Dick Dunn)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: re: Cider yeasts
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 5 Nov 96 19:59:13 MST (Tue)
Rob Rutherford (rrutherf@students.wisc.edu) wrote:
> I've been reading of late about the lamentable lack of yeasts specifically
> adapted for pitching in cider for good reproducible product...
What do commercial cideries use? Seems that if there were a real lack of
"cider yeasts", the commercial makers would have developed some. Barring
that, I'd guess that either they're using wine yeast or they're using the
natural yeasts. It's not too far-fetched to think that larger producers
could use the "wild" yeasts...if they have large orchards and have been at
the process for some years, they've probably got a lot of one dominant
strain of yeast in the air. (Anybody know how common this is?)
>...Sure, lager
> yeasts and wine yeasts work fine, but a genuine cider yeast might be able
> to give us something truly superior.
What are the criteria that we'd use to judge a "cider yeast"? Predictable,
reproducible results, as Rob says, are important. You don't want the yeast
to produce any off-tastes, but does it (should it?) really contribute any
character of its own? I'd say no--it should really stay off on the side-
lines.
What about speed of fermentation? Traditionally, a goal of beer and ale
yeasts is very rapid fermentation, because the faster it ferments, the
smaller the window of opportunity for "infection" by problem-causing bac-
teria. Wine yeasts don't appear to be selected quite so strongly for speed,
although they are still fast. However, one of the traditional criteria
for making a good cider is *slow* fermentation, achieved both by keeping
it fairly cool and sometimes by depriving the yeast of nutrients.
Next, what about controlling attenuation? Some of us prefer very dry,
still, farmhouse-style cider, so it's no problem if the yeast gobble every
last bit of sugar they can find. Other folks would like it to hold a bit
of sweetness, but can you really convince a yeast to give up early in a
medium as inviting as apple juice?
> I'm a geneticist by trade and do some work with yeast-- I certainly know
> how to purify, cross, store yeast strains. I'd be interested in anyone's
> ideas about how to isolate the best "wild yeasts", and what characteristics
> would be optimum to breed for...
Why not start by isolating and studying the wild yeasts from various
sources, and see how close they are to one another? Are there really
particularly good and bad strains, or does the environment of the apple
give strong preference to particular strains? I'm thinking that you need
to know how big the territory is.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Boulder County, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Yeasts
From: Brian Dixon <briand@hpcvsgen.cv.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 96 21:49:59 PST
>
> Subject: Cider yeasts
> From: rrutherf@students.wisc.edu
> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 18:25:06 -0600
>
> Hello all-
>
> I've been reading of late about the lamentable lack of yeasts specifically
> adapted for pitching in cider for good reproducible product. Sure, lager
> yeasts and wine yeasts work fine, but a genuine cider yeast might be able
> to give us something truly superior.
>
> I'm a geneticist by trade and do some work with yeast-- I certainly know
> how to purify, cross, store yeast strains. I'd be interested in anyone's
> ideas about how to isolate the best "wild yeasts", and what characteristics
> would be optimum to breed for. Undoubtedly, this will be a matter of
> personal taste, and I've got my own ideas, but would be interested in what
> others might think.
>
> Best,
>
> Rob Rutherford
>
> rrutherf@students.wisc.edu
>
Hi Rob, and thanks for offering your services! One thing that a cider
professional in England told me was that the only way to produce a
cider with a sweeter finish, e.g. low attenuation yeast, was to let nature
do her work and with luck, you might get what you want. Using ale,
lager, wine, or champagne yeasts (he said) would ferment to dryness.
In that case, the most notable leftover in the cider would be the cider
flavor, but not an appreciable amount of the sugars. So what yeasts
would we want? A slow fermenting, cold tolerant (to 55F), low
attenuation yeast with a clean non-yeasty finish. As far as I know,
no commercial wine yeasts (or beer yeasts) meet this objective. How
to get them from nature? Well, they'll fall in your cider or any other
growth medium that you pick right out of the air. How to isolate the
right one? I imagine that it'd take a lot of experimenting and someone
with more knowledge than I to answer that one.
Thanks!
Brian
------------------------------
Subject: Increasing Fermentable Sugars
From: Kathy Hutchins <KHUTCHINS@VAX1.IUPUI.EDU>
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 9:35:03 -0500 (EST)
> Subject: Re: increasing fermentable sugars
> From: Donald_Wegeng@xn.xerox.com (Wegeng,Donald)
> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:11:27 PST
>> I'd like to increase the fermentable sugars in my next
>> batch, but I was looking for some suggestions of ways to accomplish this.
> There are several ways to do accomplish this, some of which I have even tried.
> 1. Add cane or corn sugar. This is the easiest solution (and probably
> the least expensive, too). Unlike beer, you don't have to worry very
> much about off flavors.
This is what I do -- plain old Domino cane sugar. I measure the
SG of the fresh juice and adjust it to between 1.060 and 1.070
by adding cane sugar dissolved in a small quantity of the fresh
juice (warmed up in the microwave in a glass mason jar) to the
carboy before adding the rest of the juice. This is the easiest way
I have found to make sure the sugar gets completely dissolved.
> 3. Add raisins. This would have the added benefit of helping to raise
> the tannin level of the cider. I have no idea how to compute the
> quantity of raisins to use.
Paul Correnty has some recipes in his book _The Art of Cidermaking_
for doing this. Raisins are apparently the sweetener of choice
for making a "Country New England" style cider. I have never tried
it.
I understand that Woodchuck makes their dark variety by adding
molasses.
Kathy Hutchins
khutchins@vax1.iupui.edu
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
The wine they praise in paradise, they make in Ponterey,
The purple wine of paradise; but we have better at the price:
It's wine they drink in paradise, it's cider that they pray.
--G.K. Chesterton, A Cider Song
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Subject: non-ruined cider
From: Steve Butts <Stephen.J.Butts@lawrence.edu>
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 08:51:12 -0600 (CST)
Cider colleagues:
Robert Ray wrote of possibly "ruined" cider upon tasting shortly after fer-
mentation. Of many possibilities, three stand out:
1. Your cider truly is ruined, possibly with some kind of bacterial infection.
2. If what you tasted really was vinegary, you may be on the way to producing
cider vinegar, which sure ain't cider but which is a nice thing in itself.
3. You are on the way to producing a true, dead-dry, European-style cider.
This kind of cider is related to apple juice in about the same way wine
is related to grapes: until you're used to it, it doesn't taste much like
what it came from.
I suspect there is a very good chance that you've hit on number 3. Problem is,
this kind begins to get good only after about 6 months or more (I leave my own
in a long, slow, cool secondary for 4-5 months, then bottle and drink most of
it only a year after the original harvest).
I suggest you NOT dump your cider, but see what happens. You might open a
couple of bottles and actually try to make vinegar with them -- well away
from the area in which you would like to make more cider! If the bacteria
that eat alcohol to make vinegar are present, the cider will develop a gloppy
ball of stuff called "mother of vinegar," and you will know that your batch
will never become cider. If this does not occur, taste an unopened bottle
again in 6 months. You may well be surprised and pleased by the result. But
two warnings: cider fermentation is a lot longer and slower than beer's, and
since you have bottled early, some of your bottles may explode. And even if
good, your cider will be very un-sweet, which can be remedied, if you are not
of the dry persuasion, simply by adding some sugar syrup upon drinking.
Good luck -- all is not lost.
- -- Steve Butts
BUTTSS@Lawrence.edu
------------------------------
Subject: E Coli and cider
From: Kelly Jones <kejones@ptdcs2.intel.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 08:22:40 -0800
Dick Dunn reports concerning the dangers of windfalls harboring E Coli.
Although the evidence is there for E Coli in apples and unpastuerized apple
juice, is there still a danger once the apples are made into (fermented)
cider? One of the mantras of homebrewers (whether true or not, I can't
comment) is that "No known human pathogens can survive in beer". Is it
possible that fermented cider, with its pH and alcohol content, is
incapable of hosting E coli? Any experts out there?
Kelly
Hillsboro, OR
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #623, 5 November 1996
From: Ron Kline <ronbrew@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 12:12:53 +0000
>
> On the other hand, windfalls can be bad news even if they look pretty good
> when you first pick them up. (This is a risk with people picking fruit and
> bringing it to you.) I'd say a good first rule is "Don't use windfalls",
> period. If you need a reason, remember the case or two every year of folks
> getting sick from eating windfalls or drinking juice made from them.
>
> I will break this rule sometimes. If I see the apple fall, I'll probably
> take it (but bearing in mind that apples sometimes fall prematurely because
> there's something wrong with them). If apples from a particular tree are
> precious, and the sward is fairly clean dry grass, I may hunt around for
> windfalls and examine each one carefully before taking it...but it's gotta
> be an unusual tree with not many apples to merit that sort of attention.
>
> Some folks have apple trees bordering a pasture, or they even pasture
> animals in amongst the trees, a sort of "dual use" arrangement. I'd
> *never* take a windfall from a pasture area like this.
Now because of the apple juice scare people are asking me if home-made
cider could also contain e-coli if bad apples are used. I thought that
the alcohol would kill such an organism. Anyone know anything on this?
If it is possible to get e-coli in fermented cider is it very likely?
Many times I buy second hand apples (ones with marks) and want to make
sure this is a safe thing to do.
Thanks,
Ron
------------------------------
Subject: Cider making
From: Ted Alway <alway@coopext.cahe.wsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 13:34:48 -0800
I'm a (hard) cider maker in Central Washington state, fermenting about 10
gallons a year, generally of 2 or 3 blends. I'm quite interested in
learning form others about their blends, commercial sources, cider styles,
and other info related to this "ancient art".
I'm a pear grower and WSU Cooperative Extension pest managment specialist by
professions, but do grow some apples (Golden Delicious and Jonagold) and
have many other varieties, some particularly with cider in mind. I have a
Newtown Pippin tree, the fruit of which generally makes up 30-50% of my
blends. For the balance I use Jonagold or Golden, some Jonathan, and
recently have been adding, at 10-15%, crabapple juice, generally either
Manchurian or Hopa, with pleasing results. Cote des Blancs yeast is used,
and I prime with concentrated apple juice, in the hope of retaining more
aroma in the bottled product.
Hoping to learn of more cider and cidermakers.
Ted Alway
Extension Program Coordinator, Areawide Codling Moth IPM
WSU Cooperative Extension
400 Washington St.
Wenatchee, WA 98801
Phone: (509) 664-5540
Fax: (509) 664-5561
------------------------------
Subject: Best commercially available apple juice for cider and the best yeast?
From: jean_michel@juno.com
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 16:57:50 EST
I have just recently began making cider, but having been a homebrewer for
years I have pretty good idea of all the necessary procedures, etc. The
first few batches of cider I made turned out OK, they were of the dry
white wine variety, but I have been wanting to expand my horizons.
I have purchased a couple books on cider making, and although they do
mention using store bought table cider to ferment with, they usually only
devot a paragraph to the subject and the whole rest of the book is about
apple varieties etc. for making good cider.
I don't own a cider press, and although I live in Nebraska, I just
haven't made the hour drive to the apple orchards to even get it fresh.
I suppose I will eventually do both, but until then can anyone give me
advice on store bought apple juice in making cider? Whats the best
brand? Do you need to do or add anything to it? I have recently
purchased some fresher (?) all natural, unfiltered table cider and have
used that to ferment with. THere was a marked improvement in taste, so
I'm on the right track.
The above questions go for yeast as well. I haven't tried Lager yeast
yet, but I have tried Cotes de Blanc, Champagne, Montrachet, and Prim De
Mous from Red Star, and I have also tried Wyeast Labs Sweet Mead Yeast.
Most of the time, I either get very dry or an off flavor. I think the
best batch was with the Cotes de Blanc, but it took me several packets
and tries to get a successful starter batch. I don't know if it was bad
yeast or just a picky strain. All of the home vintning I have done has
been with Montrachet or Sweet Mead yeast, but neither of these did very
well for me for cider.
I would be willing to hear anyones preference/opinion on these matters.
I realize all of it is a matter of taste or what you want, but any help
would be appreciated. I am looking for a full bodied, very "applely",
semi-sweet, 9-10% alcohol content type of cider made from store bought
apple juice. Any good recipes?
- - Jim Lafler (alias jean_michel@juno.com)
------------------------------
Subject: E. coli again
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 10 Nov 96 09:04:25 MST (Sun)
A couple of people have asked me (re my note in the last digest) whether E.
coli is a danger in fermented cider--the usual understanding being that the
alcohol should kill off such critters. Quite honestly, I have no idea.
I'm hoping that somebody on the list with some knowledge of microbiology,
pathology and such will chime in with an answer. (Side thought: There's
more than just the question of whether the bacteria survive; we also need
to know whether they produce toxins that would remain.) Anybody know?
It wouldn't matter to me if the fermentation did kill off E.coli, because
I'm in the habit of tasting the cider all along the way--the raw juice, or
if I take a hydrometer reading, or when I rack. So even if the finished
cider were OK (and I don't know whether it would be), I don't want to take
chances with the raw juice or partially-fermented stages.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Boulder County, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #624
*************************
