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Cider Digest #0591
Subject: Cider Digest #591, 9 April 1996
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #591 9 April 1996
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
limitations of potassium sorbate (Dick Dunn)
Correnty Blend? ("Patrick O. Ruth")
Re: Cider Digest #590, 3 April 1996 (_Ralph Reed)
re:Cider Digest #590 (Kurt Schilling)
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Subject: limitations of potassium sorbate
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 3 Apr 96 22:58:19 MST (Wed)
The key thing to remember about potassium sorbate is that it will NOT stop
fermentation. If the yeast have gone dormant (e.g., because they've fer-
mented out all the sugars), it will inhibit fermentation re-starting.
Thus, for example, from the last digest, the following is not a good idea:
> ...You might try adding sugar, monitoring carefully, and adding
> the Pot. Sor. when carbonation is acceptable, but the cider is still
> sweet.
>
> I would recommend eye protection when trying that last stunt, though.
I would recommend you NOT try this. You *might* get lucky...the yeast
*might* be close to giving up at the time the carbonation is right...but
you can't count on it. The potassium sorbate will NOT make the yeast stop
if they're still fermenting.
People do tend to harp on this point, because overcarbonation means the
possibility of exploding bottles, and that's *really* dangerous. Any
technique which relies on bottling while fermentation is still going on,
hoping it will stop at the right level of carbonation, is similarly risky.
You can kill the yeast by sulfiting. This still doesn't solve the problem
of leaving residual sweetness *and* bottle-carbonating, of course. (It
also opens up the semi-religious argument on how much sulfiting, if any,
is reasonable.)
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Boulder, Colorado USA
Turn off the tube. Hang up the phone. Get out of the car. Log off.
Get out and live.
------------------------------
Subject: Correnty Blend?
From: "Patrick O. Ruth" <patr@mcs.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 08:07:19 -0600 (CST)
Did Paul Correnty have a custom press this last fall? (1995) If
so, would one of the lucky recipients post the apples utilized and
their proportions? Some of us in the Midwest (I'm 22 miles west
of Chicago) had a near total crop failure. My small home orchard
only yielded a few Early Macs. They went into pies, as I'm told
they make terrible cider. Is anyone on the list still using the
yeast extracted from the Correnty Blend #2? Does it live on in
a Back East yeast farm?
Pat Ruth - patr@mcs.com - 22 miles west of Chicago
___
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #590, 3 April 1996
From: _Ralph Reed <reedr@ava.bcc.orst.edu>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:02:07 -0800 (PST)
On 3 Apr 1996 cider-request@talisman.com wrote:
> Subject: Sweet, carbonated cider with lager yeast?
> From: Michael Vezie <dv@best.com>
> Date: Tue, 2 Apr 96 16:01:05 EST
>
> 2, It seems to me that timing is critical of this. If I bottle too soon, I
> get glass grenades, while if I bottle too late, I get flat cider. Any
> suggestions on how best to accurately time it?
> Thanks for any suggestions.
>
> In Christ,
> michael
Dear Michael:
So many people in this group seem to be playing with hand
grenades these days, that I feel that I should inject some safety
suggestions. The easiest way that I know of to produce an accurate amount
of carbonation is to ferment all the way to dryness and then add a
measured amount of sugar. For champagne making, I add 4 grams of sucrose
per liter per atmosphere of desired carbon dioxide. I generally use 6
atmospheres, as is done in France, but I only do this with special
heavy-walled bottles that I buy NEW. For sparkling cider, I used about
four atmospheres, which is about 4X4=16 grams sugar/liter. I rack a 5
gal carboy into a clean carboy (about 18 liters), add the sugar, mix well
by stirring with a stir plate for 30 minutes (you could also use a long
glass rod, or cork it and roll it on a counter top to mix it up.) (You
could also make up a concentrated solution of sugar water in the
microwave and then add the right amount; ask a chem major to help with
the calculations). Then I add some yeast starter. I use the following
recipe:
-50:50 mixture of wine and water made up to 4 % sugar
-add yeast and let ferment with an airlock for about 4 days
-add 5% volume (35 to 40 milliliters) of this starter to each 750 ml
champagne bottle and fill with my dry wine up to about two
inches from the top.
-cap with capper and let ferment in a cool but not cold place for
about 4 weeks.
-drink after a few months clearing.
-this makes a sparkling but totally dry product.
This whole process of any sparkling wine or cider making is dangerous
without proper care (did you measure it
right; was the sugar mixed well, or was it double strength on the bottom?)
However, I have only had one or two broken bottles in about 18 years of
beer and champagne making.
Does anybody in this newsgroup have a good reference book that
explains this? It would be nice to have a recipe in cups and gallons for
those folks without scales reading in grams.
I hope that this description helps.
ralph
------------------------------
Subject: re:Cider Digest #590
From: kurt@iquest.net (Kurt Schilling)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 96 09:13 EST
Salutations all:
In Cider Digest #590 I noticed a number of postings regarding methods of
stopping fermentation of cider in order to either retain sweetness and or
carbonation of sweet ciders. This leads me to putting in my 2 cents worth of
information/opinion.
The use of Potassium sorbate to halt fermentation will work only when all
active fermentation has subsided. Said another way it is not useful to
treat an actively fermenting cider with Sorbate. Potassium sorbate works to
inhibit the budding of quiescent yeasts, it does not halt an active yeast
cell from fermenting. By inhibiting yeast budding (reproduction) you will
also inhibit further fermentation of existing sugars.
In order to stop active ferment, you have a number of options.
Option 1: Sulfite teh must with 50 ppm sulfite (Potassuim or Sodium
Metabisulfite) to halt yeast activity, then rack and treat with Sorbate for
a still cider.
Option 2: Pastuerize the must at 165 dF for 10 minutes to kill the yeast.
You will possibly end up with a pectin haze in the final product. There are
a couple of ways to deal with hazy cider. Cold conditioning and re-bottling,
pectic enzyme treatment can be used. Post pastuerazation treatment with
Sorbate can be done for still cider, or dosing the must with a bottling
strain of fresh yeast and unfermented cider for carbonated cider (ie the
Charmat method of carbonation).
Option 3: Ferment you cider with a medium alcohol tolerant strain of
yeast in order to leave some residual sugar in the must. Sulfite, rack,
prime and bottle with fresh yeast for carbonated cider.
Option 4: Treat finished cider with sorbate, keg and force carbonate,
bottle using a counter pressure bottle filler for sparkling cider.
Option 5: Treat finished cider with Alexander's Wine Conditioner (a
mixture of Lacotose, sodium benzoate, and Potassium metabisulfite) to
desired level of sweetness and bottle for a sweet still cider.
Option 6: Combine options 4 and 5, treat with Alexander's Wine
Conditioner, keg and force carbonate for sparkiling cider.
I hope that this is of some use to the collective. One the subject of hazy
cider, about all that I can say is that I have had many an excellent bottle
of a hazy libation and accept the fact that some ciders will not be crystal
clear. For removing haze due to suspended yeast cells, I'd suggest the use
of Sparkaloid (1 tsp per gallon, boiled 3 to 5 minutes in 8 oz water and
stirred in hot. Allow 24-48 hours for clearing to take place.
Kurt Schilling (kurt@iquest.net)
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End of Cider Digest #591
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