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Cider Digest #0651
Subject: Cider Digest #651, 7 March 1997
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #651 7 March 1997
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Cider Press (DCAREY@ENDVM1.VNET.IBM.COM)
Highly Alcoholic Ciders (Kathy Hutchins)
Re: Cider Digest #650, 4 March 1997 (William J. Rhyne)
Nail Polish Remover Smell! (Andrew LEA)
English Cider Apples (MR DOUGLAS O KENNEDY JR)
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Subject: Cider Press
From: DCAREY@ENDVM1.VNET.IBM.COM
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 97 14:15:57 EST
Check out my antique cider press/grinder box ..which I rebuilt out of oak and
maple.....
http://pages.prodigy.com/QAZX57A/cider4.jpg
DAN
QAZX57A@prodigy.com
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Subject: Highly Alcoholic Ciders
From: Kathy Hutchins <KHUTCHINS@VAX1.IUPUI.EDU>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:36:44 -0500
I'm a bit late on this one, since the thread seems to
have died down weeks ago, but Andrew Lea was complaining
about Americans making stiff ciders, ostensibly the
easier to get drunk on my dear, and failing to "let
cider be cider."
Mr Lea, having seen your website and read your essays
on cidermaking, I must say that I respect your knowledge
highly. However, I think I must stand up for my
countrymen (and myself). We really have no tradition
of cider drinking in this country within the memory
of anyone young enough to be posting to this list.
Those of us who have not been lucky enough to visit
Herefordshire have to base our preferences on what
we have been able to obtain here, which in the midwest
anyway is Hornsby's (insert here sound of gagging),
Woodchuck (OK, especially the dark variety), Woodpecker
(too sweet for my taste but my husband likes it), or the
occasionally available product of small wineries (quality
varies immensely). That being so, we amateur ciderers
are rather stumbling our way along.
When my husband and I started our hobby cidermaking
this past fall, we decided to augment the natural sugar
content of our juice somewhat, aiming for final alcohol
between 7.5 and 9%. This was mainly because we only
had equipment to make 30 gals, and we wanted it to last
as long as possible. Not being notable drunkards, a
higher proof tipple means that we drink less, not that
we get drunker.
We've got two batches in the bottle now and four more
still in secondary. I am guessing that what we have
made is more an apple wine than a real cider,
but as I said we have little real cider to compare
it with. They both are pleasant and drinkable already.
We are now in the custom of opening one 12-oz bottle
each evening and splitting it.
Now that I've defended the Yanks, I'll admit that
Mr. Lea has a very good point. I do wish that we had
made some cider that could be drunk, rather than
sipped. I suppose the only solution is to double
the carboy count next fall.
Kathy Hutchins
khutchins@vax1.iupui.edu
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #650, 4 March 1997
From: rhyne@pop.winterlan.com (William J. Rhyne)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 08:17:50 -0800
RE: Mark Cohen's nail polish remover smell in his cider
In the wine business, that smell is referred to as V.A. , volatile
acidity..I think. It means..oops. I think that it is a reflection on
technique so a person has to be very careful to to prevent the bad bugs
from getting in the cider. SO2 , clean utensils, and tight control of
exposure to air will probably help. Also, I think that picking apples with
high acidity and tannin will help. Anyone else have a suggestion or am I
correct in my thinking?
Bill Rhyne
===========================
William J. Rhyne
===========================
------------------------------
Subject: Nail Polish Remover Smell!
From: Andrew LEA <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 16:46:05 -0500
>>Subject: HELP! Nail Polish Remover Smell! From:
>>BigMark1@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 17:20:09 -0500 (EST)
>>I wound up with a *very* unpleasant, nail polish remover-like
>>smell.
>>I've been told it's the actual ingredient in nail polish
>>remover - methyl aldehyde maybe? I can't remember! (I saw it in
>>a brewing book.)
>>I then added a clarifying agent (the one made from crab shells,
>>I believe) in order to clear the brew & possibly the source of
>>the odor, This, unfortunately,
>>did neither.
>>Does anybody have any information on: - - what this smell is -
>>- what causes it - - can I get rid of it?
Flavour Chemistry at a distance is next to impossible, but I'll give it a
try! What Mark describes is similar to the aroma of ethyl or amyl acetate
(which latter is nail polish remover). Both these are esters which are
produced naturally by the yeast during cider making but at high levels they
are no longer desirable and can have an objectionable character. High
temperature fermentation (I regard 65 F as high!) for a long time could
quite likely increase them to well over the acceptable threshold.
The chitosan fining agent won't touch them - indeed little is likely to
remove them except activated charcoal and then you'll take out ALL the
flavour components so you'll be left with a bland and insipid drink.
However, there is a chance that simple storage will reduce their impact -
because they are esters and have been over-produced for some reason by the
yeast, they may be over their equilibrium levels in a water-acid-alcohol
mix. If you bottle or closely cap the cider and leave it for 6 months,
they may slowly hydrolyse back to their parent acid and alcohol
constituents which will be much less noticeable. I can't guarantee
success, but this certainly works with my natural yeast ciders which tend
to be over-estery immediately after fermentation. This whole process of
re-balancing esters is indeed central to the initial maturation of all
wines.
However, since half the must was peach, this may also be something to do
with the chemistry of fermented peach flavour which is another story
altogether. Also may I humbly suggest not trying to make cider with beer
yeasts - use a wine yeast - because many brewers yeasts have been selected
for estery and fuselly characters which are fine for beer but don't always
sit well in wines and ciders!
Good luck!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
(andrew_lea@compuserve.com)
------------------------------
Subject: English Cider Apples
From: NPDM51A@prodigy.com (MR DOUGLAS O KENNEDY JR)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 21:30:09, -0500
I am interested in growing English cider apples in SE Pennsylvania.
Does anyone have suggestions to the best ones to grow? What kinds
have you had success?
Regards, Doug Kennedy NPDM51A@prodigy.com
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End of Cider Digest #651
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