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Cider Digest #0617
Subject: Cider Digest #617, 9 October 1996
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #617 9 October 1996
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Preservatives In Cider (Ben Brinkmann)
source of french cider making book (Eric James Urquhart)
novice questions (faymi@earlham.edu)
RE: Maceration and tannin (Ifor_Williams@EURO2.CCMAIL.CompuServe.COM)
Preservatives and also Copper (Andrew LEA)
Yeasts for residual sweetness (Andrew LEA)
Fermenting on the skins (Andrew LEA)
Re: Cider Digest #616, 3 October 1996 (Ron Kline)
Re: Cider Digest #616, 3 October 1996 (Ron Kline)
Cider flavors (Tyler Nelson)
Re: Cider Digest #616, 3 October 1996 (Brian Dixon)
Re: Preservatives in Cider (Michael S Ferdinando)
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Subject: Re: Preservatives In Cider
From: Ben Brinkmann <brinkmann.benjamin@mayo.edu>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 12:28:24 -0500
> What experiences does this group have with using cider with preservatives,
> specifically sorbates? I have purchased preservative-free cider for my first
> attempt, but I would like to know if any of you have had success with cider
> that has preservatives in it.
I have no actual experience here, but I would like to point out that
winemakers (and some cidermakers) use sorbates to kill the yeast
following fermentation. My guess is, that's why the sorbates are
there in the first place: to kill wild yeast.
You could certainly buy a gallon of preserved cider and try it with a
vigorous (i.e. champaign) yeast with plenty of yeast energizer. There's
no harm in trying, but if I had to bet, I'd say you could expect to end
up with yeasty apple juice when all is said and done.
- -Ben Brinkmann
------------------------------
Subject: source of french cider making book
From: Eric James Urquhart <eurquhar@sfu.ca>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 10:36:30 -0700 (PDT)
This english translation of the French cider making book by
Warcollier sounds wonderful. Could you please post the full title,
publisher and ordering ifo if possible.
Thanks very much.
- --
Eric Urquhart, Centre for Pest Management,
Dept. of Biological Sciences, Simon Fraser University,
Burnaby, British Columbia, CANADA V5A 1S6
lab (604) 291-3090 fax (604) 291-3496
------------------------------
Subject: novice questions
From: faymi@earlham.edu
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 21:21:01 EST
I brew beer some but have never tried cider and would like to try it. I want
to ferment it with the wild yeasts present in the cider (any comments on this,
good idea or not?) The bid question is: I can get some pretty good tasting
unpasteurized cider from my grocery store, but it has potasium sorbate and some
other preservative in it, how well with that work? Alternately, I can get some
from an orchard nearby, but a friend said it was clear and very light, like
apple juice (I assume this is caused by the method of extraction?) Which is
the better choice of ciders, or should I forget both and look for a better
source.
Also, a friend has access to some sort of press and a couple apple
trees, what is the feasability of making cider myself?
Thanks in advance,
Michael
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Maceration and tannin
From: Ifor_Williams@EURO2.CCMAIL.CompuServe.COM
Date: 05 Oct 96 00:20:37 EDT
> To summarize Warcollier's writings in this area, to make good cider you
> need high sugar, acid, and tannin, and maceration helps the different
> parts of the apple get to know each other before going to press.
We let the pulp stand for a day after pulping before pressing. The
oxidation of the pulp during this period results in the cider having a
beautiful orange/deep golden colour.
One way to avoid excessive oxidation is to pack down the pulp to
exclude as much air as possible, then sprinkle the exposed surfaces
with Ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) before covering with "cling film".
Cheers,
Ifor.
Tregarth Cider Cooperative.
------------------------------
Subject: Preservatives and also Copper
From: Andrew LEA <101750.3071@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 02:51:09 -0400
Re CD #616 enquiry from Dan Jeska. If you've got sweet cider preserved with
sorbate or benzoate you'll have a helluva job to get it to ferment with an
added yeast and it probably never will - that's why they put it in! The
most likely thing is that nasty bacteria (which are not sorbate resistant)
will eventually take over and if it 'takes off' at all it will end up like
sour milk! Don't waste your time - make sure you get unpreserved cider if
you want to ferment it!
Also with copper (Greg Kushmeerek's question) - don't take it anywhere near
cider! Copper reacts with apple tannin in the presence of fruit acid,
thus making the cider brown and oxidised and hazy and giving off-flavours.
Any trace of copper above one-half a part per million in the cider can
cause problems!
Andre Lea, Oxford, UK
------------------------------
Subject: Yeasts for residual sweetness
From: Andrew LEA <101750.3071@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 02:51:07 -0400
Several contributors to the Digest seem to be suggesting that if they use
certain types of beer yeast they will get a naturally sweet cider because
the yeast will stop fermenting before all the sugar is used up, as it
sometimes does in beer. I don't believe this is true. It happens in beer
because there are large quantities (say 35%) of triose and tetrose sugars
from malt which are not fermentable by all beer yeasts - thus the yeast
digests all it can and leaves the rest, giving some residual body and
sweetness. But in apple juice 98% of the sugars are fructose, glucose and
sucrose which are totally fermentable by all S. cerevisiae. Hence a cider
with an added yeast will always go towards total dryness, and there will
never be enough alcohol to inhibit this (6 - 7% max). The only way to stop
it is either to allow a 'natural' yeast fermentation (i.e. with mostly
non-Saccharomyces yeasts) and/or to reduce the nitrogenous nutrient and
vitamin level of the apple juice so far (e.g. by maceration and keeving)
that the yeast simply cannot grow any more. This is the basis of the
traditional French and English process - at the risk of being a bore,
there's a discussion of it in Chapter 4 of my web page at
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea and also in the Proulx
and Nchols 'Sweet and Hard Cider' book if anyone wants to read more.
Making a naturally sweet cider is really quite difficult! If there were a
yeast which did the job then believe me the commercial boys would be using
it already!!
Andrew Lea, Oxford, UK
------------------------------
Subject: Fermenting on the skins
From: Andrew LEA <101750.3071@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 02:51:13 -0400
In reply to Kelly Jones (CD #615) the reason we don't do this with apples
is because only about 10% or so of apple pulp is free-run juice - in grapes
it's more like 60%. Thus the 'cap' separates in winemaking and it's easy
to decant off the fermenting liquid - this can't be done with apples unless
you press out the WHOLE fermenting mash and just imagine what a mess that
would be! Apart from which, the differential distribution of 'tannin'
between skin and flesh is not so marked in apples as it is in red grapes so
the benefits would not be so useful anyway.
However, it IS possible to re-extract entire apple pomace with alcohol to
get a lot more tannin out which can then be added back to the cider. This
was done experimentally at Long Ashton in the 70's to get best use out of a
limited supply of bittersweets - it was never taken up by the industry for
economic reasons and anyway the UK consumer has been weaned away from
tannin for the last 20 years now! There was some work done in Quebec about
the same time making a pink cider by re-extracting skins from red apples in
the same way, but this too remained experimental so far as I know. There
is one red-FLESHED cider cultivar (Bloody Turk) which has pink juice and so
makes pink cider but in practice all commercial pink ciders in Europe are
coloured with e.g. grapeskin extract, blackcurrant or sour cherry juice!
Incidentally someone asked about measuring tannins - this is best done (as
in wineries) using the Folin method, but tricky at home cos it needs a
colorimeter to get the results. The old potassium permanganate titration
(Lowenthal) dates from about 1890 and could perhaps be adapted for home use
but you still have to make up the permanganate accurately with a chemical
balance or standardise it with iodine - yet more hassle! I really don't
know the answer for measuring tannin easily at home!
Andrew Lea, Oxford, UK
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #616, 3 October 1996
From: Ron Kline <ronbrew@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 11:29:01 +0000
> >Subject: over fermenting (yeast bite?)
> >From: "Michael L. Vezie" <mlv@pobox.com>
> >Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 10:23:10 -0400 (EDT)
> >
> >Is it possible to over-ferment cider, and thus get a yeast bite?
> >My guess is that if you're using a low alcohol-tolerance yeast
> >(like a lager yeast), it's not, because the yeast will stop
> >fermenting, not because it runs out of sugar, but because there
> >is too much alcohol.
>
I don't think that yeast bite comes from fermenting too much. I thought
that is a term that is used in beer making when yeast picks up the hop
resins during fermentation and gives you that taste profile. Now I'm new
to making cider so this term may be used for something else. I know
there is autolysis which is when yeast runs out of sugars and starts to
starve. To survive they start to eat on each other causing a sulfur or
rubber odor which does have a kind of biting taste. The question on
alcohol and fermentation, that is an interesting thing you bring up. I'm
not sure the answer but It seems like the higher the gravity of the
cider the more residual sweetness you get, so you are probably right.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #616, 3 October 1996
From: Ron Kline <ronbrew@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 11:38:40 +0000
Subject: "Off" flavors in cider batches
From: Scot Crispin <scrispin@shore.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 08:16:56 -0400
I have been making cider for 4-5 years now and I have a consistent =
problem. I get a "fruity?" (hard to define) taste/smell in the batches.
=
I would think that you could get rid of that by using a cleaner yeast
strain. I'm not sure what wyeast package you used but I know that red
star has the problem of causing fruity off flavors. But many ale yeast
can impart a fruity off flavors when fermented at higher temperatures.
If you have access to temperature control I would ferment at a lower
temperature. You even said it was worse when you fermented at higher
temperatures. I find that some ale yeasts can ferment much lower than
people expect. I've stuck some batches in the refrigerator at 45-50F and
had excellent results and no fruity off flavors. But you have to make
sure you have a good pitching rate, and lower the temperature only after
a good fermentation has started.
Good Luck
Ron Kline
------------------------------
Subject: Cider flavors
From: Tyler Nelson <gnelson@pacific.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 18:24:12 -0700
I live on a pear and grape farm. The pears usually are not a huge
income for the farm. I decided to try and make a hard cider out of the
pears as a possible alternative market. I have experiences making beer,
but cider is a whole new ball of wax. This year we pressed about a ton
of pears. We got about 80 gallons of juice (our press and our bodies
were pretty tired by the end of the day.) We seperated the juice into
three batches. Two of the batches recieved seperate types of champane
yeast and one recieved a lager yeast.
The differences in the three ciders was shocking. All three were nice.
I would like more of the pear flavor to shine through. Also, I felt
they were too dry. How do I pump up residual sugar and pear flavor
without blowing the caps of my bottles during carbonation? I have some
access to kegging equipment, but I still want to bottle about half...
Tyler Nelson
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #616, 3 October 1996
From: Brian Dixon <briand@hpcvsgen.cv.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 96 8:39:33 PDT
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: "Off" flavors in cider batches
> From: Scot Crispin <scrispin@shore.net>
> Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 08:16:56 -0400
>
> I have been making cider for 4-5 years now and I have a consistent =
> problem. I get a "fruity?" (hard to define) taste/smell in the batches. =
> It is most noticable when I first open a bottle. The smell dissipates =
> after a couple minutes but some of the taste remains. It is slight =
> enough that most people do not notice but since I drink quite a bit of =
> hard cider I do. I have only tried other commerical ciders, not anyone =
> else's homebrewed varieties. The result is that I do not know if this is =
> endemic to homemade hard cider or if it is something in my process.
>
> In my batches I have used a wide variety of apples. I usually add some =
> acid blend and grape tannin if the mix is not tart enough. I have used =
> Red Star Champagne yeast but I now have switched to Epenary II or Wyeast =
> Ale yeasts. Low acid blends tend to have this smell/taste moreso but =
> even high acid blends have it to some degree. It seems to me that my =
> second batches that are put down in November are better than the earlier =
> ones put down in September. My basement is in the mid sixties before =
> winter sets in. I have wondered if this is too warm. My guess is that =
> either I am being too picky or I am experiencing some other process in =
> my cider such as the yeast autolyzing. The problem is subtle enough and =
> I am not experienced enough to make any definitive call on this. Any =
> comments are welcome.
>
> ------------------------------
I'm not very experienced in making ciders, since my very first batch is
happily bubbling away right now as we speak, but I do have a little
background in beer brewing. I would guess that your 'fruity' flavors
and smell are really just esters in the cider. These can range the
gamut from 'fruity' to 'flowery', including some 'blends'. If the
fruitiness was like 'apple', then you'd say the stuff was great I bet!
In any case, if you want to decrease the production of esters, you need
to execute your ferment at a lower temperature, e.g. between 55 F and 60 F.
Standard procedure for beers that are ales, and are not supposed to
exhibit esterial qualities, is to do the primary fermentation (4 days or so)
at 65 degrees, rack them to a secondary fermenter, then do the secondary
fermentation at 55 to 60 degrees. Some 'mixed method' types actually
do the secondary fermentation at cooler temps yet, say 40 F (lagering).
Choice of yeasts also makes a difference. Read the yeast descriptions
and look for one that says 'low attenuation, low fruitiness (or low ester)'.
I don't have any fancy lagering or fermentation coolers, but have similar
mid-60s temps where I ferment my beer. To decrease the temps another
5 to 10 degrees or so, I use a U-Haul dish-pack box that I modified. It's
a tall box that is about 18" square. You don't need to close either
end. Just cut off one flap, duct tape or otherwise fasten it inside one
end of the box to make a shelf a few inches in from the end. You set
the box over the fermenter, and place a towel and a couple of frozen
blue ice bags on the shelf that you made. Cool air slowly floats down
into the box, keeping the fermenter cool. I also cut a little flap on
the side at the bottom of the box to let cool air come out so I can
get some flow through the system. I leave a min-max recording thermometer
next to the fermenter to keep an eye on the temperature range
experienced by the beer. Finally, I just put the blue ice in during the
day with the little flap open, then at night I put the blue ice back
in the freezer and close the little flap. I average 58 degrees plus
or minus 2 degrees when the room temperature ranges from 55 (night) to
65-70 during the day. If this doesn't quite do it for you, try using
4 blue ice bags during the day and 2 at night, swapping them in/out of
the freezer each morning and evening. Cost so far: $4.50 for the box,
$1.76 for 2 "el cheapo brand" blue ice bags at the local grocery...not
a bad deal.
Brian
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Preservatives in Cider
From: msf2@cornell.edu (Michael S Ferdinando)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 08:24:37 -0400
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Subject: Preservatives In Cider
>From: djeska@sojourn.com (Dan F. Jeska)
>Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:26:12 -0400
>
>I am going to attempt making some hard cider this fall. What I would like to
>know is:
>
>What experiences does this group have with using cider with preservatives,
>specifically sorbates? I have purchased preservative-free cider for my first
>attempt, but I would like to know if any of you have had success with cider
>that has preservatives in it.
>
>D.F. Jeska, P.E.
Don't use it. Sorbates are added to inhibit yeast growth to prolong the
shelf life of sweet cider. In other words, it won't ferment. Boiling does
not denature sorbates-- believe me, I tried once!
Good luck!
Michael S Ferdinando
Production Control Assistant--Cornellcard
Cornell University Office of the Bursar, 260 Day Hall, Ithaca NY 14853
607-255-8135 // msf2@cornell.edu // fax: 607-255-6442
The doctor can bury his mistakes, but the architect can only advise his
clients to plant vines. --Frank Lloyd Wright
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #617
*************************
