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Cider Digest #0589
Subject: Cider Digest #589, 30 March 1996
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #589 30 March 1996
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Blackthorn-type cider (Daniel Edward Ciolkosz)
re: Orange Hard Cider (Dick Dunn)
Flat Cider (Todd Kirby)
Re: (not so) dumb question & Re: Orange Hard Cider (Ron Sielinski)
Re: How to make Blackthorn style ciders (wegeng.XKeys@xerox.com)
Re: making blackthorn ciders (con't) (Morgan Miller)
Re: killing yeast (Dave Kain)
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Subject: Blackthorn-type cider
From: Daniel Edward Ciolkosz <dec9@cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 17:39:59 -0500 (EST)
Hi folks!
As far as I can tell, the key to making cider that tastes like the
commercial stuff is to get a lot of unfermented juice into the mix (30-40%
by volume). Last season I tried the following technique, and it gave some
pretty good results:
Boost up the starting gravity of your fresh juice to about 1.5 times the
desired alcohol percentage (i.e. if you want 5% alcohol in the finished
product, then you'll need a starting gravity of around 7.5% potential
alcohol). Pitch in some yeast, and let it ferment (airlocked, of course).
When it's done fermenting, and all the cloudy stuff has settled to the
bottom (usually takes a couple of months at least), then you're ready to
bottle.
Get some plastic soda bottles (with lids) and some clarified, pasteurized
(not chemically treated) apple juice (available in most grocery stores -
"Indian Summer" brand in upstate New York seems to work very nicely). Fill
the bottles with 30-40% unfermented juice, and the rest of the way with the
fermented stuff. Cap the bottles, and let them sit until they build up a
good amount of carbonation (those bottles can take quite a bit of pressure).
Then stick the bottles in the fridge, and drink with your supper when
chilled.
How long do the bottles last in the fridge before they explode and make a
mess? Well, at least a couple of weeks, but as long as you weren't using a
cold temperature yeast, I imagine they'd last for a good bit longer.
Granted, it's not a great recipie for a huge batch, but if you are willing
to do small amounts at a time, it may meet your needs. Good luck, and
DON'T USE GLASS BOTTLES for this recipie.
Dan
------------------------------
Subject: re: Orange Hard Cider
From: rcd@raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 26 Mar 96 17:42:40 MST (Tue)
Jason Henning (HuskerRed@aol.com) writes about:
> some orange juice that is fresh squeezed in the store and doesn't have
> preservatives. So I bought a half gallon and pitched some Australian ale
> yeast in it. It had a O.G. 44. Has anyone else tried orange juice or
> have I just lost my mind?!?
There's nothing unusual about it; it's just not a "cider" and may not be
familiar to cider folks. There's a category called "country wines" that
covers just about anything fermented with fruits, vegetables, herbs, etc.,
usually brought up to wine strength by adding sugar. I think an orange
"wine" sounds fairly ordinary compared to wines made with potatoes,
carrots, or walnut leaves!
The usual note applies: Realize that what you get after fermenting may
not be anything like what you expect or like, even if you really like the
unfermented item. It's hard to imagine what something's going to taste
like if it's initially sweet but you take out all the sweetness and replace
it with some alcohol. (Not to say it isn't worth a try, of course!)
Dick
------------------------------
Subject: Flat Cider
From: Todd Kirby <mkirby@bgsm.edu>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 19:24:38 -0500 (EST)
I'm still fiddling around with my first batch of cider. After allowing to
clear for months in the secondary, I primed and bottled (3/4 cup priming
sugar like beer) for around 5 gallons. After a month in the bottle, there
is no carbonation. The cider has an EXTREMELY alcoholic character,
especially considering it was fermented with EDME ale yeast, but is quite
tasty and would have made a very nice sparkling cider (actually, I guess
it's a cyser as it contained some honey). It basically consisted of
around 5 gallons of commercial juice (no preservative), a pound of honey,
and a pound of light brown sugar. After this amount of time in the
bottle, is there any hope that it might eventually carbonate? It would be
excellent on the upcoming hot summer days following yard work. Any
suggestions?
Todd
------------------------------
Subject: Re: (not so) dumb question & Re: Orange Hard Cider
From: Ron Sielinski <sielinr@cris.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 20:03:30 -0500 (EST)
Gene wrote:
>Subject: Re: dumb question
>Bought me 5+ gallons of cider from an orchard. Followed advice of beer
>& wine shop & added champagne yeast to otherwise untouched liquid in
>primary fermenter. Fermented.
<snip>
>Got EXTREMELY alcohol-tasting,
>not-quite-right-on, absolutely clear well-carbonated stuff.
>
>Dumb question: what have I got? A bacterially-contaminated cider for
>lack of proper pretreatment? Just a flavor I wasn't anticipating? Right.
>I did not RTFM. Don't have one. (Got LOTS of books on beermaking.)
>Can one be suggested by Older & /or Wiser Heads?
You've got just what the recipe called for. Champagne yeasts are vigorous
devils; they eat your *all* the natural sugars and leave you with
high-alcohol hootch. One way to deal with champagne yeast is to keep adding
more sugar; eventually the alcohol will rise to a level they can't
withstand, and the extra sugar will begin sweetening your cider. Or, if you
seek a milder beverage (as your brewer-of-many-beers history suggests),
switch to ale yeasts for your next cider. You'll get something more like
cider and less like wine.
BTW, you don't have to treat sweet cider to get a good-tasting hard cider.
My best ciders have come from just letting the juice sit in the basement and
ferment. Nothing but natural sugars and wild yeasts....
As for book(s): *Sweet & Hard Cider*, by Annie Proulx and Lew Nichols (check
your homebrew catalogs), and *The Art of Cidermaking* by Paul Correntry (The
Association of Brewers: 303-546-6514). $tandard di$claimer.
- ------------------------------
Jason wrote:
>Subject: Orange Hard Cider
>some orange juice that is fresh squeezed in the store and doesn't have
>preservatives. So I bought a half gallon and pitched some Australian ale
>yeast in it. It had a O.G. 44. Has anyone else tried orange juice or
>have I just lost my mind?!?
No lost mind. Just don't call it "cider". *Winemaker's Recipe Handbook*, by
Raymond Massaccesi, lists all sorts of oddball wines: banana, beet, melon,
parsnip, tea, tomato (:p), and orange (one recipe for fresh, one for
frozen). The only real advice the recipes offer is to rack a few times: 1)
one week, 2) three weeks, and 3) two months. Sounds like you'll be fighting
cloudiness.
Good luck,
Ron
------------------------------
Subject: Re: How to make Blackthorn style ciders
From: wegeng.XKeys@xerox.com
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 06:26:11 PST
>Does this mean that the carbonation isn't a function of fermentation, but
>simply pressurizing the end result, or using carbonated water?
The practice of using carbonated water to produce a carbonated beverage is
quite common at large commercial beer breweries. When I first started
homebrewing (before I knew better), I wrote letters to all of the big US
breweries asking for information about their brewing processes, and I was quite
susprised to learn about this practice. At least one bragged about brewing
from high gravity wort, and then when fermentation is complete diluting the
result with carbonated water. They claimed that this was more efficient use of
their facility, since they got more final product from less wort.
It does not surprise me a bit to learn that some commercial cider makers also
follow this practice.
/Don
------------------------------
Subject: Re: making blackthorn ciders (con't)
From: incider@teleport.com (Morgan Miller)
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:41:05 +0100
A number of issues ago Craig asked:
>I would like to produce something more like Blackthorn.
To which I replied:
>What the big cidermakers do is tricky. What happens is they start with high
>OG juice (added sugars), ferment the juice to dry (usually with champaign
>yeasts-quick,clean,high alcohol), kill the yeast, then add in more juice
>(or carbonated water) to hit the desired ending gravity. Then powdered
>mallic acid is added to raise the 'tartness' of the cider
In the last issue Michael Vezie asks about Blackthorn type ciders:
>Does this mean that the carbonation isn't a function of fermentation, but
>simply pressurizing the end result, or using carbonated water?
You got it, there is most likely some slight residual carbonation, but the
final cider is virtually still.
Craig asks:
>If I want to try replicating this type of procedure, what is the recommended
>way of killing the yeast? Do I have to boil the fermented cider? Is there a
>better approach?
Never boil your fermented cider as it would remove all the alcohol! The
commercial cideries micro-filter the yeasts out of the cider. You need to
use either an expensive filter or some type of sulphates to kill the yeast.
An alternative I've seen is to mix fresh juice with the hard cider. I can
imagine a mix of sweet cider, seltzer water and hard cider could work.
Remember the mallic acid is important to raise the acidity levels lost in
fermentation!
Morgan Miller
Cider Space web page
http://www.teleport.com/~incider
"Cider drinkers are as addicted to cider as absinthe drinkers are to
absinthe, only cider drinkers are twice as crazy."
- -Emmet Grogan, Ringolevio (great quote, bad book)
------------------------------
Subject: Re: killing yeast
From: dpk1@nysaes.cornell.edu (Dave Kain)
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 16:12:53 -0500
Craig (grizzliez@aol.com) wrote:
>
>If I want to try replicating this type of procedure, what is the recommended
>way of killing the yeast? Do I have to boil the fermented cider? Is there a
>better approach?
>
>Craig
>
I have tried boil cider to kill yeast, which produces a haze that will
never clear. It doesn't bother me (What's with this obsession with clear
beverages, anyway?! I like to know I've got some real stuff in my hooch)
However, since I'm interested in the answers as well, I posed the question
to an expert, who prefers to remain nameless. Here is his (edited)
response:
It's not necessary to boil it. "About 165=B0F for 10 minutes will kill yeast=
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End of Cider Digest #589
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