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Cider Digest #0590
Subject: Cider Digest #590, 3 April 1996
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #590 3 April 1996
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #589, 30 March 1996 (Jim LaFronz)
Re: Cider Digest #588, 26 March 1996 (William J. Rhyne)
Re: Cider Digest #589, 30 March 1996 (Michael S Ferdinando)
message appearing in #589 (Dave Kain)
Sweet, carbonated cider with lager yeast? (Michael Vezie)
good luck with cider ("David L. Taylor")
Cultivation and Propagation ("Patrick O. Ruth")
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #589, 30 March 1996
From: Jim LaFronz <jlafronz@tribeca.ios.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 15:14:47 -0500
In reference to deactivating yeast to sweeten a cider with a carbonated
sugar & water combo, DON'T Boil. Go to a winemaking shop and pick up
some potassium sorbate, which will deactivate (but not kill) the yeast,
without any haze, change in flavor, or loss of alcohol.
Of course, once the yeasts take the big sleep, natural carbonation is
impossible. You might try adding sugar, monitoring carefully, and adding
the Pot. Sor. when carbonation is acceptable, but the cider is still
sweet.
I would recommend eye protection when trying that last stunt, though.
Jim
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #588, 26 March 1996
From: rhyne@pop.winterlan.com (William J. Rhyne)
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 12:36:09 -0800
RE: Commercial cider makers(Blackthorn) and killing yeast at the end of
fermentation
>From what I have read so far and from what I am learning from our own
experiments, cider makers use SO2 or pasteurization (at 65 degrees celsius)
to kill bacteria and yeasts. Before bottling, the juice is racked to
another container, as the solid part and yeast will settle to the bottom of
the container. Some makers may use filtration or centrifuges to separate
the solids. The Champagne method removes stuff that collects in the bottom
with the disgorgement method.
For home makers, I would guess the easiest and most accessible way to get
rid of yeast is the racking, SO2, and/or pasteurization methods.
That is all for now.
Bill Rhyne, Sonoma Cyder
===========================
Callie Konno
===========================
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #589, 30 March 1996
From: msf2@cornell.edu (Michael S Ferdinando)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 08:50:48 -0500
>------------------------------
>
>Subject: Flat Cider
>From: Todd Kirby <mkirby@bgsm.edu>
>Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 19:24:38 -0500 (EST)
>
>I'm still fiddling around with my first batch of cider. After allowing to
>clear for months in the secondary, I primed and bottled (3/4 cup priming
>sugar like beer) for around 5 gallons. After a month in the bottle, there
>is no carbonation. The cider has an EXTREMELY alcoholic character,
>especially considering it was fermented with EDME ale yeast, but is quite
>tasty and would have made a very nice sparkling cider (actually, I guess
>it's a cyser as it contained some honey). It basically consisted of
>around 5 gallons of commercial juice (no preservative), a pound of honey,
>and a pound of light brown sugar. After this amount of time in the
>bottle, is there any hope that it might eventually carbonate? It would be
>excellent on the upcoming hot summer days following yard work. Any
>suggestions?
>
>Todd
>
Todd: It sounds like you've hit the maximum alcohol tolerance of the yeast
strain you used. About the only way this will carbonate is to have added
some extra volume of water or unfermented cider to the batch before
bottling. I guess you could pop open you bottles, pour them all into your
bottling bucket, add... I don't know... a quart? Half a gallon?... of of
unfermented cider, or water and priming sugar, and then re-bottle. This
lowers the alcohol concentration, allowing more fermentation.
Another thing you could do would be add a higher-tolerant yeast, like a
wine or champagne yeast, and re-bottle.
Be wary of either of these: you could make bottle-bombs by mistake. If I
were you, I'd just enjoy the still cider, or serve it mixed with a little
club soda.
Enjoy!
Michael S Ferdinando
Production Control Assistant--Cornellcard
Cornell University Office of the Bursar, 260 Day Hall, Ithaca NY 14853
607-255-5980 // msf2@cornell.edu // fax: 607-255-6442
"640K should be enough for anybody."
--Bill Gates, 1981
------------------------------
Subject: message appearing in #589
From: dpk1@nysaes.cornell.edu (Dave Kain)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 09:34:34 -0500
Apparently the message I sent didn't come through. I had cut and pasted it
from elsewhere, which may have been the problem. Here goes again:
Re: killing yeast (from anonymous):
"It is not necessqary to boil to kill the yeast, 165=B0F for 10 minutes will
do it. Unfortunately when you heat something like cider or grape wine with
a fermentation cloud in it, the cloud stays even though the fermentation
stops. Alternatively you can hit the fermentation with a good 50 ppm of
sulfite (0.5 gram/gal. potassium metabisulfite) and put the jug in a
28-32=B0F room until it settles out clear. Fermentation stops overnight when
you do this and it is best to do this with all fermentation so it leaves a
lot of the fruitiness, and a little unfermented sugar, in the wine (cider).
I measure the alcohol and/or sugar and stop the fermentation when I get to
the right point. When you bottle you need to check the ppm sulfite because
most of what was added to stop fermentation is bound up. "
The addition of sulfites will kill yeast and stop fermentation, which is
fine for a still cider, but you still have a problem if you want to
carbonate it naturally (the author of the above uses CO2). Heating to 165
will not drive off the alcohol, but does leave a haze that won't ever
clear. But what are you gonna do, drink it or look at it?
- -Dave Kain
------------------------------
Subject: Sweet, carbonated cider with lager yeast?
From: Michael Vezie <dv@best.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 96 16:01:05 EST
I'm going to be trying something soon, and would appreciate any thoughts
on it.
My last batch of cider (my first!) I'm considering a success -- simple, 5
gallons of apple juice (unfiltered), with champaign yeast, then primed with
another gallon of juice, and bottled. It's very strong, alcohol-wise, and
nicely carbonated. My only complaint with it is that it is too strong
(alcohol), and too dry.
Now, as I understand it, the reason for the strength is the yeast; champaign
yeast can stand a lot of alcohol before it dies. So all the sugar became
alcohol. But if I use (I think) a lager yeast, it will inherently be much
weaker, and also sweeter. This is my goal.
My plan is this: Short fermentation with lager yeast, then bottle (maybe
without even priming), while it's still fermenting. Let it finish
fermentation in the bottle. I think this will give me a sweeter cider,
that is still carbonated.
My questions:
1, What yeast should I use? I want something that will die when there is
just a little alcohol there, so the sugars can remain, and keep it sweet.
Is lager yeast correct?
2, It seems to me that timing is critical of this. If I bottle too soon, I
get glass grenades, while if I bottle too late, I get flat cider. Any
suggestions on how best to accurately time it?
3, Any other suggestions for this method? Should I prime it after racking?
Should I adjust the S.G. before I start to ferment (either with sugar or
frozen concentrate apple juice)?
Thanks for any suggestions.
In Christ,
michael
------------------------------
Subject: good luck with cider
From: "David L. Taylor" <73563.3352@compuserve.com>
Date: 02 Apr 96 16:23:15 EST
My first try at cider was when in high school. bottle of cider and bread yeast,
it was explosive to say the least ( I did great with the school project though).
Over the last few years Ive tried a few different approaches and this year's
seems great.
I originally used champagne yeast and got a very attenuated product which was
not that tastey. This year I used off the shelf from a farm stand Mac/Cortland
cider I Upped the SG with Maple syrup( hopeing for a carmel tase) and pitched
WYeast california lager. let things go in the basement with only the addition
of pectic enzyme. 1 month later i racked (saving the trub) and waited one more
month before priming with maple syrup again. The result after 2m in bottle is a
nice flavored cider with no maple taste but a touch of sweetness. I would
reccomend this to anyone.
recipe as follows
3 gal mac/cortland
1 pint maple cider ( mixed with cider and warmed in microvave to thin the mix)
1 wack pack of WYeast Ca. lager ( NO STARTER OR NUTHIN)
1 Month in primary ( carboy with lock)
1 month in secondary
1 pint maple syrup mixed with cider to prime in priming vessle
Bottle and keep cold
Batch #2 take trub from first batch
crush in blender 3 bags of frozen raspberrys
sieve juice thru jelly bag
add to trub
top off with 2.x gallons of fresh Mac/cortland cider
1 month in primary
1 month in secondary
prime with juice from 3 bags of raspberrys
Bottle
Havn't tried the new batch yet but im expecting greatness
Someone was looking for winter/spring sources of apple juice
I hear senaca frozen granny smith can be used with sucess
MY plan for next year is to use juice that is blended for cider. Paul Correnty
said that a few of his friends get batches of juice pressed to their
specifications.
Regards
Dave taylor
------------------------------
Subject: Cultivation and Propagation
From: "Patrick O. Ruth" <patr@mcs.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 11:03:12 -0600 (CST)
The list seems to be at a seasonal slow ebb, so how about a bit
on cultivation and propagation of apples? Some cider makers
seem to think that a high quality cider is best made from fresh
apples that have been bred for the purpose. These varieties
possess more astringency and acid than the dessert apples that
are mostly available today in the market. If you want to make
cider from them, you'll have to order them from specialty nurseries
well in advance, or make them yourselves.
To the chase: There's an organization called the Midwest Fruit
Explorers. They had a grafting workshop at Cantigny (Robert McCormick's
estate, founder of the Chicago Tribune ) this last Sunday, March 31, 96.
It's a public education thing. You may buy rootstock of several varieties
and species, this year they had M27, Bud9, Mark and M26 apple stock,
OHXF333 pear, and St. Julian A plum rootstock. Four bucks a pop.
Some of the hobbyists bring in scionwood, and that's the real treat.
I'm guessing that there were over 50 apple, 20 pear (mostly Asian) ,
and 20 plum varieties were available *and* labeled. Highly knowledgeable
fellows instructed and helped with the grafting. Now the sad part.
Most of the stuff was for dessert apples. Quite a few of the fellows
are into new disease-resistant cultivars, balanced by quite a few
antique varieties. I didn't see a single commercial variety available.
The antiques like Black Gillyflower or Sops of Wine were the
closest to cider apples. The fellow who brought in their scionwood
likes the unusual pear flavor of BG and the black licorice of
SoW.
One older gentleman with an excellent orchard said that he didn't
grow any cider apples, since they weren't good to eat out of hand.
The only great cider apple scion wood there was Kingston Black
sent to *me* by one of our Iowa listers. (I won't reveal his
name, visions of jealous listers, grafting knives in hand, making
midnight requisitions come to mind). The scion sticks were
small compared to the stock, so I cleft grafted two, whip and
tongue grafted the largest, and later, at home, a very small one on
a Lodi sucker. I didn't share any of it. If the grafts take,
I'll have wood in a couple of years.
One of the sparkplugs of the group, a really active intelligent
fellow, had never heard of the Cider Digest. He probably has
50 different varieties in his back yard. They do press apples, some
have presses, but no one seems to talk about fermenting it. Maybe
they have the same problem that I do, the family drinks it quicker
than it can be prepared or fermented. This last summer was a total
crop failure for me, so it wasn't hard to do.
They're having another workshop on April 14, 1996, at the Chicago
Botanic Garden in Glencoe, Ill. The public is invited, and there
is some rootstock left. This may should have been posted to
alt.agriculture.fruit, my apologies to those of that opinion.
Pat Ruth - patr@mcs.com
________
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End of Cider Digest #590
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