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Cider Digest #0004
Subject: Cider Digest #4 Thu Aug 15 18:00:11 EDT 1991
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 91 18:00:13 EDT
From: cider-request@expo.lcs.mit.edu (Are you SURE you want to send it HERE?)
Cider Digest #4 Thu Aug 15 18:00:12 EDT 1991
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Jay Hersh, Digest Coordinator
Contents:
Woodpecker (hersh)
woodpecker (Aaron Birenboim)
greetings ("Dr. John")
Archive Volunteers?? (hersh)
Cider Digest tops 100 subscribers in First Week!! (hersh)
Re: Cider Digest #2 Wed Aug 14 18:00:08 EDT 1991 (David King)
Potassium metabisulphate/sulpher dioxide (David King)
Residual Sweetness (Mike Demers x-222-2047)
Send submissions to cider@expo.lcs.mit.edu
Send requests to cider-request@expo.lcs.mit.edu
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Date: Thu, 15 Aug 91 11:10:14 EDT
From: hersh@expo.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Woodpecker
Greg (and others in Beantown) you can get Woodpecker on Draft in a few places.
The Sunset in Alston for one, though I've seen it in at least one or towo other
places. Might nice on draft.
JaH
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Date: Thu, 15 Aug 91 10:39:00 MDT
From: abirenbo@isis.cs.du.edu (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: woodpecker
Woodpecker is the cider that convinced me to try making cider.
However, i do not think it is a good example of cider. The woodpecker
I had has a vinegar taste. I do not care for that flavor. I have
made one batch of cider. Many things went wrong, but its still
an excellent drink, and it blows woodpecker away.
Are the woodpecker that y'all have had vinegar flavored?
I have had woodpecker on tap in Atlanta, GA, and in 9.3
oz bottles. I DO like it, but my cider has no vinegar,
and i think its much better.
my recipe was 3 gal juice, 1.5 lb Malt, 2lb honey, and
champigne yeast. it was very dry. at botling i primed
some with malt (1.25 cups dry/5 gal) , the rest i
used a wine stabilizer and sweetened with honey and brown
sugar. I have not tried the champaigne type (dry & carbonated)
but the still sweet stuff is REAL good.
since i prefer an ale type cider, next time i will use ale
yeast.
aaron
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Date: Thu, 15 Aug 91 13:37:59 EDT
From: "Dr. John" <JELJ@cornella.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject: greetings
Hello all,
Thought I'd put in my 2-cents worth. I recently read a book that has some
information about cider, and cider making, as well as several other sorts of
interesting fermented beverages (maple sap beer, birch beer, applejack, etc.).
While the information is primarily of historic interest, it is an enjoyable
read, and it is "Wines and Beers of Old New England: A How-to-do-it History"
by Sanborn C. Brown, whom some of you MIT types may know of.
On another subject, I think that we need to do a bit of digging to determine
what unattenuative yeasts are, and how they can be best employed in cider
production. My understanding, which is contrary to some of the traffic in
this forum, is that unattenuative is a reference to some yeasts' inability to
ferment certain sugars, and isn't really just a measure of how many points of
specific gravity they will eat before they poop out (and I think that there was
at least one reference to something like this already but it didn't generate
any additional discussion). So, does anyone know what sugars are present in
cider (prior to fermenting it)? Is there more than one, as there is in an
unfermented beer wort?
The Canadians seem to have one up on us Yanks (we won't include you as a
Yank if you object strenuously enough Kinney) in the production of commercial
ciders. I've had a couple that were very nice, and the one brand in particular
that I remember is something called Okanogan Springs (I'm almost sure I
misspelled it). I had both their apple and pear ciders (cider and perry if
you are particular about terminology) last summer and was impressed, especially
by the perry.
I have yet to successfully make cider, tried it once about 15 years ago and
got a couple gallons of cider vinegar. I'm hoping to learn enough from this
digest to allow me to make somthing more drinkable this fall, as there is an
abundance of "soft" cider available in these parts every fall.
Thumbs up for the digest format, thanks Jay. It is a lot easier to deal
with than the random messages showing up one at a time.
Cheers,
Dr. John
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 91 14:13:30 EDT
From: hersh@expo.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Archive Volunteers??
Well before too long someone is going to want old copies of this thing.
Now while I'm currently archiving it I have ABSOLUTELY NO INTENTION
of providing old issues on request. It is enough work adding names, deleting
names, and dealing with mail bounced by bad addresses or unknown users
(return paths aren't always valid, and lots of people, especially those not
familiar with intracacies of e-mail, often unintentionally provide bad paths)
So that said I was wondering if anyone out there has the capability to set
up an automatic archiver and archival request responder such as the ones out
there for the HBD??
- JaH
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
assume that you are moderate in everything.
you now have an eXcess of moderation, a contradiction.
eXcessiveness is clearly the way to go...
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 91 14:15:49 EDT
From: hersh@expo.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Cider Digest tops 100 subscribers in First Week!!
Well that mostly says it, we now have 100+ subscribers (some of the addresses
are echo-ers that redistribute multiple copies to a given organization).
- JaH
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
assume that you are moderate in everything.
you now have an eXcess of moderation, a contradiction.
eXcessiveness is clearly the way to go...
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1991 10:03:22 EDT
From: gatech!mcnc.org!eci386!drk@eddie.mit.edu (David King)
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #2 Wed Aug 14 18:00:08 EDT 1991
> Date: Wed Aug 14 17:33:49 1991
> From: semantic!bob@uunet.uu.net
>
> I have to date only made one batch of Hard Cider. This was really a Cyser
> with two pounds of honey added to one gallon of cider. I am pretty happy
> with the ferment using the Red Star Champagne yeast. I used sulphites to
> sterilize the must, but however I added some after the ferment and thus it
> has a nasty aroma. This was a test batch and was ment to learn from,
> as I now have.
If you haven't tossed the stuff out try aerating it as you rack it.
ie: put the output end of your siphon at the top of your carboy and
let the cider run down the side or splash to the bottom. You want to
disturb the cider so the sulpher dioxide can escape. Oxidation shouldn't
be a problem as sulpher dioxide is also an effective antioxidant.
I'd leave it in the carboy with an airlock on it and rack it a few times
over several weeks. That should improve things.
- --
Dave King (drk@eci386.UUCP)
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1991 11:12:27 EDT
From: gatech!mcnc.org!eci386!drk@eddie.mit.edu (David King)
Subject: Potassium metabisulphate/sulpher dioxide
Well my interest about potassium metabisulphate/sulpher dioxide
has been piqued. Here's a brief discussion I found, reprinted without
permission, in the front of a catalogue I have from Presque Isle Wine
Cellars. They sell wine making supplies by mail order so here's the
address if anyone wants to send for a catalogue. A fair bit of what
they sell would be of interest to cider makers I think.
Presque Isle Wine Cellars
9440 Buffalo Rd. (U.S. Rt. 20)
North East, PA. 16428
(814) 725-1314
For the most part, references to white wine in the following will
also apply to cider I'd say.
A far as calculating quantities they claim their potassium metabisulphate
is theoretically 57% SO2. One gram will yield 150 parts per million (ppm)
in one gallon or 30 ppm in 5 gallons. 1/4 teaspoon is 1.5 grams.
Their campden tablets are .55 gram and contain 48% SO2. One tablet yields
about 75 ppm in one gallon.
I don't know if these figures are universal for all potassium metabisulphate
and campden tablets. Probably for the potassium metabisulphate but not for
the campden tablets.
Sulpher dioxide:
This most versatile of chemicals comes as close as anything to being
recommended for all wines. It inhibits molds, bacteria and yeast but
is selective because the true wine yeasts are more tolerant of it than
other organisms. It is an effective anti-oxidant for which there is no
suitable substitute. It will inhibit malo-lactic fermentations. Some
people show allergic reactions to sulpher dioxide but almost always as
asthmatic reactions to atmospheric SO2 rather than to SO2 in aqueous
solution as it occurs in wine.
1) It is often used in conjunction with pure wine yeast cultures at a
rate of 50 to 100 parts per million (ppm) by adding it a few hours
before adding the yeast. The wild strains are temporarily inhibited
and the wine yeast, which is more SO2 tolerant, will dominate the
fermentation. This is common practice with whites but not with reds.
Some wineries prefer to avoid SO2 until after fermentation. This is
still an area of controversy as to which is the better practice.
2) Even when you don't use a wine yeast culture and trust to the wild
yeast, the better yeast strains (at least for wine) will recover first
and dominate the fermentation. Normally you will add 30 to 60 ppm of
sulpher dioxide for this purpose.
3) The addition of SO2 at each racking after fermentation has ended and
at bottling will do much to retain the fresh flavor of a young white
wine. An addition of 25 to 50 ppm at each racking and at bottling would
be typical. Use less at lower pH levels and more with higher pH wines.
Oak ages red wines need less SO2 than whites.
(I wouldn't do this for cider...drk)
4) It is very poor practice to add sulpher dioxide to wines while they are
still fermenting. The SO2 quickly becomes tied up in a bound form which
won't help in inhibiting microbial growth or oxidation; in the meantime
it will cause a great deal of acetaldehyde to form which will adversely
affect flavour.
Sulpher dioxide is a gas which is released in the wine when either of the
following two chemicals (tartaric acid & citric acid - used to increase
the acidity of a must...drk) are added. It is also the irritating gas
produced when you burn a sulpher wick. It will not act as a magical
additive which will prevent any wine from spoiling or restore one which
has been abused but it will, when properly used, aid in preserving an
otherwise sound wine.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1991 14:07 EST
From: Mike Demers x-222-2047 <DEMERSM%sdi.polaroid.com@relay.cs.net>
Subject: Residual Sweetness
Yes I'll admit it my first batch of cider was as dry as the Saharah.
Needless to say I am looking forward to the next batch having some
sweetness. What do you think of using a cup of 20 lovibond crystal
per gallon. This should add nice color to the finished cider as well
as some unfermentable sugars. Would the malt flavor overpower the
apple flavor?
Everything I've read sofar recommends treating the cider with Sorbistat
when the ferment is complete in order to kill the yeast then adding sugar
to taste. I would prefer not to use this technique because I would like to
try a sparkling cider.
Mike Demers
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End of Cider Digest
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