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Info-ParaNet Newsletters Volume 1 Number 577
Info-ParaNet Newsletters Volume I Number 577
Wednesday, July 29th 1992
(C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service. All Rights Reserved.
Today's Topics:
FTP Archives Reorganized
Phobos2-probe Ufo Pic-pro And Contra
Stealth Manuscript
AURORA & NASA?
Air&Space article
"Ogden Objects"
"Ogden Objects"
Re: K2 And The Phoenix Project
"Ogden Objects"
STRONG WORD OF CAUTION!
Re: MJ-12 THE ULTIMATE
Re: Closed Abductee Conference
Air & Space article
Let The Truth Be Told!
Re: K2 And The Phoenix Project
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: csn!jrblack
Subject: FTP Archives Reorganized
Date: 24 Jul 92 19:18:00 GMT
From: Roger Black <csn!jrblack@ncar.UCAR.EDU>
The InfoPara FTP archives on the Internet have been reorganized in an effort
to be more merciful to people with slow modems. Specifically, back issues
of InfoPara (which are stored on Internet host 'grind.isca.uiowa.edu' in
directory /info/paranet/infopara) are now divided into subdirectories as
follows:
0xx issues 001-099 3xx issues 300-399
1xx issues 100-199 4xx issues 400-499
2xx issues 200-299 5xx issues 500-599
We have tested this new arrangement, and as far as we can tell everything
is working correctly; but there is always the chance that we've missed
something. If you encounter any problems with the FTP archives, please
send a description of your difficulties via email to 'jrblack@csn.org'
and we'll get it fixed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
James Roger Black jrblack@csn.org
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Phobos2-probe Ufo Pic-pro And Contra
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:44:03 GMT
* Forwarded from "Alt.Alien.Visitors"
* Originally from Stefan Hartmann
* Originally dated 07-22-92 12:56
From: leo@zelator.in-berlin.de (Stefan Hartmann)
Date: 21 Jul 92 10:02:03 GMT
Organization: Puplic-Access-Xenix-System
Message-ID: <R2A5BC@zelator.in-berlin.de>
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Hi,
I just have posted the mysterious phobos2-probe UFO-pic as a GIF-pic
called phobufo.gif in the newsgroup:
alt.binaries.pictures.misc
I was asked in private email to do so, cause many people don't yet
have any JPEG viewers !
Okay, but now the Pro and Contra:
I enclose here to emails, which say it is only a particle hit or a
CCD-chip error.
Can anybody verify this ?
Here comes the email I received:
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 92 18:25:33 HST
From: deane@mozart.IFA.Hawaii.Edu (Kimo Kanaka De'ane)
Message-Id: <9207210425.AA27631@mozart.IFA.Hawaii.EDU>
To: leo@zelator.in-berlin.de
Subject: Re: phobufo.jpg, part 1/1 Phobos2-probe-UFO-pic
Newsgroups: alt.binaries.pictures.erotica
In-Reply-To: <7894THM@zelator.in-berlin.de>
Organization: Institute for Astronomy, Hawaii
Cc:
Status: RO
Aloha.
As an infrared astronomer, I am certain that the streak in this
picture is a bad column from the infrared array. Those chips are notorious
for having rows of dead pixels. I saw shapes like this one on both the
array at the University of Wyoming IR Observatory and here at UH, though
ours is a cutting-edge device, and has slightly better cosmetics. I put
no faith whatsoever in the UFO idea.
Again, I've used these devices extensively, and my job is determining
what kind of structure one can believable extract from imaging electronics.
This is just an instrumental flaw.
N.B. CCDs are used in the Optical bandpass, roughly the same light
visible with the eye. IR-arrays are the same *basic* structure, with important
differences in detail, and are about 5-8 years behind CCDs in terms of size
and performance. It's a hard waveband to work in, but one chock full of
scientific merit.
Clear skies,
Kimo
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 92 19:13:32 EDT
From: tarl@apache.sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter)
Message-Id: <9207202313.AA15439@apache.sw.stratus.com>
To: leo@zelator.in-berlin.de
In-Reply-To: Stefan Hartmann's message of Mon, 20 Jul 92 12:32:43 MEST
<m0m9v2p-0001YRC@zelator.in-berlin.de>
Subject: phobufo.jpg, part 1/1 Phobos2-probe-UFO-pic
Status: RO
> Hmm,
> interesting idea, but tell me, won't there be visible only a little
> white pixel and not this long big line ?
If you happen to get a charged particle hitting the edge of the detector
parallel to the plane, it will travel through a number of cells, triggering
them. Under some conditions, the cascade of secondary particles can make the
line much wider than a single pixel.
> What about all the other photos that were taken ? Why are over there
> no white lines or spots ?
The effect is temporary, so you won't get the same damage in all images.
If you question is why none of the other pictures show any damage, there
are two answers:
a) Do you have all of the raw data for all the images? Knowing how
glavkosmos works (even post-perestroika), you don't. It's common
practice to process images removing defects before you release
them, and to simply discard images that are too badly damaged.
b) Have you heard of the term "random"?
> Would a CCD chip camera for space mission not made safe for this
> charged particle hits ? If not, You would see every time only white
> spots !
No.
a) It takes miles of insulation to defend against relativistic charged
particles. There is no way to make a CCD "safe" against cosmic rays.
b) They aren't common enough to zap all your images. Most images won't
have any cosmic ray hits, and those that do will probably be at a
sharper angle than this, and thus a smaller hit.
c) My comment about cosmic rays was simply one of the defects that could
be the cause; I'd have to have the raw data and specifications on the
imaging and transmission hardware before I could comment on the likely
candidates.
I've observed this discussion before, and I don't care to carry it on.
It is the provenance of conspiracy theorists and ufo true-believers, not
anyone who has ever worked with CCDs or space equipment. The only reason
I commented is because after posting it to sci.astro, you posted it to an
erotica group, which was inappropriate.
> Rethink about it !
Give me a break.
Tarl
So, what do You all say about this ?
Best regards Stefan Hartmann.
email to: leo@zelator.in-berlin.de
--
*************************************************************
* Stefan Hartmann This is how to contact me: *
* EMAIL: leo@zelator.in-berlin.de *
* Phone : ++ 49 30 344 23 66 FAX : ++ 49 30 344 92 79 *
*************************************************************
--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Re: Phobos2-probe Ufo Pic-pro And Contra
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:45:04 GMT
* Forwarded from "Alt.Alien.Visitors"
* Originally from Ithlial The Archer
* Originally dated 07-22-92 12:56
From: cary@carina.unm.edu (Ithlial the Archer)
Date: 21 Jul 92 15:44:39 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Message-ID: <cydmmsl@lynx.unm.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal
Everything stated in the original post is a common occurence even in
ground based CCDs. Especially the cosmic ray hits, which become quite
frequent on long esposures, like those used for extragalactic objects.
On observing runs I've been on I've seen CR hits so energetic they
saturate an entire column and possibly an adjacent one and leave residual
charge on subsequent read-outs of the chip (somewhat like an after image
that people get when they look at something very bright.) Our method of
dealing with cosmic ray hits is to take at least three short exposures
in place of the one long one and then median them. This works quite
well since even small chips are 512 by 512 (columns by pixels) so the
chance of having even the same column hit is very small especially
if you make your exposure time shorter.
On the one of the chips at our observatory (Capilla Peak, in the Manzanos
mtns in NM) we saw what we thought to be a comet. We searched for the
object on subsequent nights, since we need at least 3 observations
to really nail down the orbit et cetera. We could not locate the object.
Then the 'object' appeared again at a far removed point in the sky.
A quick back of the envelope calculation show that if the 'comet'
was even at a very close range then its velocity was an order of
magnitude above solar system escape velicity and few times above
galactic escape velocity. The culprit was a fairly large defect on the
chip.
I think this story serves to show that defects and CR hits can produce
a wide variety of effects on CCDs. We could have just as easily said
that the effect was and exhaust plume of a spaceship, but when we found
out chip was acting silly the end result was the same: we gotta buy
a new chip.
See ya,
Ithlial
My opinions, mine, mine, mine!
To me, boxing is like ballet, except there's no music, no choreography,
and the dancers hit eachother.
--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Stealth Manuscript
Date: 24 Jul 92 22:08:01 GMT
* Forwarded from "Alt.Alien.Visitors"
* Originally from Joe Citro Iii
* Originally dated 07-24-92 13:10
From: jcitro3@cwis.unomaha.edu (Joe Citro III)
Date: 24 Jul 92 08:34:33 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Message-ID: <1992Jul24.083433.12878@news.unomaha.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Someone posted an article in the last few weeks (in alt.alien.visitors)
about a supposed politician whom had claimed to have been abducted. No
names were given as to which politician this might be. However last night
(23 July) I found the following article in TIME magazines July 27, 1992
issue.
"Here Comes The Stealth Manuscript"
"Booksellers are grinding their teeth over several big Ross Perot books
that have been cancelled on the eve of publication. BUT SOMETHING BIGGER
MAY BE COMING SOON (my emphasis). Putnam is preparing to ship more than
100,000 copies of a supersecret book in late August. The publisher is
keeping both the subject and the author completely confidential. According
to buyers for the major chains, Putnam executives have been whispering that
it is a biography of a major Washington official that contains information
so explosive it could cause his or her resignation. This has prompted a
guessing game within the industry, but Putnam executives say only
'No Comment.'"
Anticipation will antagonize me until late August! I certainly hope that
this will not turn out to be hoax.
Joseph A. Citro III
jcitro3@odin.unomaha.edu
--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
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From: Steve.Gresser@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Steve Gresser)
Subject: AURORA & NASA?
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:46:00 GMT
* Forwarded from "UFOs"
* Originally by Albert Dobyns
* Originally to Chris Mangus
* Originally dated 21 Jul 1992, 20:06
Fellow Aurora watchers, I found this post on the Space echonet and was
surprised to see it! I'm not sure what to make of it. Is it for
real? Is it some form of disinformation? Is it an attempt to shift
the emphasis of Aurora from spy plane usage to a research vehicle?
All I can say for sure is I don't know the answer to these questions.
--------------------------------------
NASA's Office of Aeronautics and Space Technology announced that work
has begun on the construction of a very-high-altitude unpiloted
research aircraft which NASA will use to measure ozone levels and
other atmospheric conditions. The aircraft is being manufactured
under a $2.25 million contract by Aurora Flight Sciences Corp.,
Manassas, Virginia, and is made of lightweight composite materials
such as graphite and Kevlar.
The Perseus aircraft is viewed as the first step in the general use of
advanced aircraft for many aspects of Earth science research which are
presently out of the flight regime of other NASA flight platforms such
as the ER-2 high-altitude research aircraft or high-altitude balloons.
The Perseus aircraft, which will have a wingspan of nearly 59 feet and
yet will weigh only 880 pounds, is expected to be able to fly at
altitudes of 82,000 feet with a range of 1,000 miles and a cruising
time of one hour. The plane will be powered by a liquid-cooled rotary
engine which will run on gasoline and oxygen, diluted by recirculated
exhaust gases.
The Perseus is designed to fly nominal missions using a preprogrammed
flight sequence with onboard inertial systems using Global Positioning
Satellite data and onboard wind sensors to update the aircraft's
autopilot. The plane also can be flown by ground command much like
previous aircraft have been in the NASA aircraft research program.
Ames Research Center is the flight project management center for the
Perseus, which will begin flight testing late this year at Dryden
Flight Research Facility in California's Mojave Desert.
---------------------------------
Just wanted to add that I lived close enough to Manassas, Virginia to
have driven through there many times. If I'm ever in that area again,
I'm going to look for that company! I'm hoping that others who read
this may be able to substantiate some of this info! I find it very
interesting even though it's not a flying saucer!!
# Origin: Chicago's Multiline BBS (708) 887-7685 [9600 V32 HST] (8:7001/1)
--
Steve Gresser - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Steve.Gresser@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG
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From: violet.berkeley.edu!chalmers
Subject: Air&Space article
Date: 25 Jul 92 17:11:59 GMT
From: chalmers@violet.berkeley.edu (John H. Chalmers Jr.)
The August/September 1992 issue of AIR&SPACE magazine, published
by the Smithsonian Aerospace Museum, carries an article called
'Aliens in the Basement' about Wright-Patterson Air Force Base
and the legend that captured EBE's and UFO's have been stored and
studied there (pp 34-49). The author is Frank Kuznik and the
photographer, Lee Battaglia.
There are no surprises in this piece, but it's interesting
reading, especially about the 'super-secret Foreign Technology
center.' The author also speculates that what may have been
covered up in New Mexico in 1947 was the crash of B-29 carrying
an atomic bomb.
-- John
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From: Vince.Johnson@p0.f150.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Vince Johnson)
Subject: "Ogden Objects"
Date: 25 Jul 92 17:41:00 GMT
How was the "Ogden Objects" story resolved? I never heard whether or
not the story was ever substantiated.
--
Vince Johnson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
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--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Peggy.Noonan@p0.f150.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: "Ogden Objects"
Date: 25 Jul 92 23:21:00 GMT
>How was the "Ogden Objects" story resolved? I never heard
>whether or not the story was ever substantiated.
>---
Hi Vince,
I don't know if anyone else found anything, but I was
stopped without getting to the root of the story. The one person
who supposedly was actually there and who released the story to his
friend later decided he wouldn't talk about it because it wasn't
that big a deal. (Only to everyone else, apparently.) None of the
government sources I contacted verified anything, but that's not
proof either way -- if you lean toward conspiracy theories or
believe the Gov't, either way, it's nil. None of the places I
checked had any activity that fit this thing and everyone I
contacted wanted to know more but didn't have much in the way of
data to contribute. So, the bottom line is, no...there wasn't
anything more. Frustrating. *If* the story was true and *if* any
of that stuff happened, you'd think that some of the other people
who saw it or worked on the excavation of the site would've talked
by now, at least in the rumor-mill level, but nothing's come to
me...perhaps somebody else in ParaNet will know...
You might find a book interesting -- it's called _The Ogden
Enigma_ by Gene Snyder, Playboy Press (date...not sure offhand, 79
maybe). It's about a mysterious object hidden at what would be the
same place this current Ogden Object was supposed to be, and it's
linked to UFOs. It is fiction, however, so if you read the book be
prepared for that. The preface is really interesting. And it would
be easy to surmise that this author fictionalized something that
really happened (the contact he had who told him about the Ogden
mystery) and then "imagineered" the rest of the tale atop that. The
book is out of print and not available through the publisher (I
called) but you can find it on Interlibrary Loan if you ask your
librarian to get it for you. Might be in some of the listings at
places like Arcturus Books in GA (excellent resource for UFO books)
or Lou Farish's UFO Newsclipping Service's book list (Route 220, Box
1, Plumerville, AR 72127). I don't have the Arcturus address here
on my desk, but loads of people in the echo know it and I'm sure
someone will pop up with the info for you.
If you DO hear of any new info on the story, would you
please pass it along to me? I'd be very grateful. My story on this
(for OMNI's Antimatter section) hasn't been published so there's
still time to update if new info comes out or new people start
talking.
I hope this reply was of some help, though I wish it
could've been more interesting -- a resolution to the mystery!
==Peggy
--
Peggy Noonan - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: Peggy.Noonan@p0.f150.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: David.Brune@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (David Brune)
Subject: Re: K2 And The Phoenix Project
Date: 26 Jul 92 04:18:00 GMT
Clark,
I've talked to Jack and he is going to send me a tape of the radio message
they intercepted, mentioned in the K2 report, so we'll see what that has to
say about all this. It should be interesting to say the least.
David
--
David Brune - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: David.Brune@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Vince.Johnson@p0.f150.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Vince Johnson)
Subject: "Ogden Objects"
Date: 26 Jul 92 21:51:00 GMT
I've seen a file on the story you mentioned. It's called
OGDENENI.TXT and concerns the fictional story you describe, except
in this case, it's a crashed (100 foot diameter) flying saucer that
the military recovers and moves to Utah near the Dugway Prooving
Ground (remember the nerve gas leak there during the 60s.. killed a
bunch of cattle.. sounds like the movie CE3K). I don't believe the
story concerned any excavations of artifacts as in the "Ogden
Objects" story. If you like I'll upload this file to you.
By the way, I have to ask.. are you the same Peggy Noonan that
writes speeches for the GOP?
Regards,
Vince
--
Vince Johnson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: Vince.Johnson@p0.f150.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ParaNet.Information.Service@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (sm)
Subject: STRONG WORD OF CAUTION!
Date: 27 Jul 92 06:56:02 GMT
Over the last few days we have been posting information supplied by the
Phoenix Project of Carson City, Nevada. This information has been strongly
disclaimed by ParaNet pending the results of our investigation to determine
the validity of the Phoenix Project and its officers.
While the investigation is still ongoing, we have found some highly disturbing
things relating to credibility of the group. This information will be
reported as soon as the investigation is completed. This should be in the
next few days.
Until this investigation is complete and the findings published, ParaNet
wishes to urge everyone not to send any money to the group.
Michael Corbin
Director
--
ParaNet(sm) Information Service - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Pete.Porro@f414.n154.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: MJ-12 THE ULTIMATE
Date: 23 Jul 92 15:31:42 GMT
Yes after a quick look it does look like the MJ-12 series released a few
years back. It's an edited collection of similar ideas. Now I'll go back and
read for anything new or different.
--
Pete Porro - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: afglsc.span.nasa.gov!WEBB
Subject: Re: Closed Abductee Conference
Date: 27 Jul 92 15:24:09 GMT
From: WEBB@afglsc.span.nasa.gov
To: Mike Corbin
Mike, I fully agree with you that peer review is an essential element of
proper scientific validation. As far as I know all the papers for the proc.
of the conference will be refereed in some fashion and, again, the proc.
will be available to anyone. I do not specifically know why Vallee was not
at the conf. I do know that some submitted papers were rejected or requests
were made to shorten them. Despite running 5 days, the speaking times were
very limited due to the strong response for participation and desire for
comprehensive coverage of the abduction subject. I would guess that Vallee
was invited but declined to attend due to other commitments and/or that he
did not want to shorten or change his talk. I do not speak for the
organizers and have probably said too much already.
Dave Webb
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Mike.Keithly@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Mike Keithly)
Subject: Air & Space article
Date: 28 Jul 92 01:32:03 GMT
* Forwarded from "FidoNet UFO Echo"
* Originally by Mike Keithly
* Originally to All
* Originally dated 27 Jul 1992, 18:23
Just to let you know there is an article on Wright Patterson AFB in the issue
of Air & Space Magazine on the infamous Hanger 18, a good article that all
leads up to what we all know there is no Hanger 18 and no bodys. But there is
mention of a Foreign Technology room that NO one gets into without Top Secret
Clearance less than 100 people can get access to it.. Good Article check it
out.
Mike Keithly
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John.Burke@f9.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG (John Burke)
Subject: Let The Truth Be Told!
Date: 29 Jul 92 06:03:00 GMT
Finally! An article has been published that provides us with a
candid look at how Stanton Friedman conducts his investigations.
For years, anyone who dared to publicly question Friedman's work
(particularly the MJ-12 junk) was threatened with a libel suit.
Nevertheless, the Citizens Against UFO Secrecy called his bluff
and continued to inform the readership of _Just Cause_ about the
real goings on in Friedman's MJ-12 investigation.
Recently, the United States District Court dismissed spoonbender
Uri Geller's defamation suit against CSICOP. The court went
further and imposed sanctions against Geller in accordance with
Rule 11 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure for bringing the
action in bad faith (i.e. in attempt to silence his critics).
There happens to be a defense to a defamation suit, commonly
characterized as: "fair comment and criticism on matters of
public importance". By entering into the public arena to debate
paranormal issues (as Geller and Friedman have) their
investigative methodologies are "fair game" for any critics. As
a result of the Geller case many critics of people like Friedman
(who likes to blow a lot of smoke about filing libel suits) will
feel more comfortable to voice their opinions. If Friedman does
file such a suit, he runs the risk of being slapped with Rule 11
sanctions as did Geller.
I was delighted to see the recent article in the _International
UFO Reporter_ Vol. 17 No.3, which finally brought to light the
investigative methodologies of Stanton Friedman. Many of us who
followed the MJ-12 fiasco along, found it strange that Friedman
continued to vouch for the authenticity of those
obviously-forged documents even as the evidence of their hoaxed
origin continued to mount. It just didn't seem like he was
being too objective about his investigation. His published
articles on the subject had the unequivocal spirit of advocacy
running throughout. This same spirit of advocacy was again
brought to light in the recent _IUR_. Additionally, the tactics
employed by Friedman have been documented and exposed. Any
reasonable person should be disgusted with the way Friedman
continues to trot Gerald Anderson around as his star witness to
an alleged "San Agustin UFO crash" in the face of overwhelming
evidence that Anderson is a liar.
Perhaps as a result of this article and the decision in the
Geller case, the various UFO publications and groups will stop
giving Friedman the credit he doesn't deserve and start
subjecting him to the same scrutiny that everyone else gets.
Once they do, I would expect to see a lot less interest in his
work. Enough time has been wasted on the MJ-12 documents and the
fabrications of Gerald Anderson. Let's move on to something
more worthwhile.
-- John
--
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--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: David.Brune@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (David Brune)
Subject: Re: K2 And The Phoenix Project
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:56:00 GMT
Clark,
I have no idea what this intercepted transmission the Phoenix group got is.
I've asked Jack, but he said he had to defer it to the Phoenix Group for their
answer. I basically asked what you did, what kind of transmission is it, how
was it intercepted, etc. If I hear anything, or get the tape for the matter,
I'll let you know. I have a friend who is a communications engineer and who
was in the military for about 10 years, he said he would listen to it and tell
me if it is military or what.
I just heard of this Haddonfield thing the other day. I haven't had a chance
to ask Jack about it yet, but I plan on it ASAP. As for the newsletter, that
is news to me, no pun intended, but I will definitely ask Jack and see what he
says.
You may be interested to know, that I have managed to get Jack and the Phoenix
Group to enter into an online conference on CIS! It will be interesting what
is said and what questions are asked, and how people will feel afterwards. If
the guy or group is hoaxing all this, as some people believe, then they sure
have some guts to go into an online conference. I'll keep you posted.
David
--
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