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Info-ParaNet Newsletters Volume 1 Number 489
Info-ParaNet Newsletters Volume I Number 489
Monday, October 14th 1991
Today's Topics:
Weird Night on Halloween
Re: FATIMA
re: 'fantasy-susceptibility and...'
Ball Lightning
Pritchard
Math on Mars
Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Myste
Re: ogden object
Re: Ogden Object
Re: Hudson Valley Messages
Re: (none)
Re: FATIMA
Re: Crop circle researcher
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From: Peggy.Noonan@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Peggy Noonan)
Subject: Weird Night on Halloween
Date: 12 Oct 91 18:55:00 GMT
For those of you who can get KOA radio (850 on your AM dial), there
will be a second "Weird Night" with Rick Barber this month on
Halloween. Don't miss it! Should be a good one. Last program
October 11 featured, among others, Jerry Decker of KeelyNet talking
about Spontaneous Human Combustion. And also featured a man who
said he was abducted and implanted and that implant has been removed
and examined by doctors!
Great stuff. Try out your radios --KOA is heard in 38 states so you
may be able to receive it.
--
Peggy Noonan - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: Peggy.Noonan@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
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From: Pete.Porro@f414.n154.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: FATIMA
Date: 10 Oct 91 18:23:50 GMT
I suppose in 1994 we will have to go through the revealing of the corrected
version of #3. Just for information sake the last girl became a nun and last
year at Xmas I talked to a Franciscian who still wrote to her on ocassion.
SHe was still alive and well. I had an urge to write and ask her address, but
I thought it would be rude to write and ask alot of questions. Now I would
write with only one question, did the message have anything to do with the
year 1993. She could simply state, no or yes, without divulging information.
(of course some folks would automatically turn over that rock, hiding behind
the tree and say she was lying?)
It's futile.
So the 11:11 people are a year ahead of Fatima, and according to the
Nostradamas prediction experts, it already happened last year. The Dr. Corder
files are about 99% incorrect. Label me skeptical to the max on the above...
--
Pete Porro - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: Pete.Porro@f414.n154.z1.FIDONET.ORG
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From: ncar!usl.edu!pgf9240
Subject: re: 'fantasy-susceptibility and...'
Date: 13 Oct 91 03:11:44 GMT
From: pgf9240@usl.edu (Fraering Philip G)
Well, what about 'fantasy-prone' people that don't see UFO's? I
think I might be 'fantasy-prone,' and I do like to think I have
an overactive imagination, but I've seen nothing, have no mysterious
gaps in my memory (except for some parts of high school, but that
has a more mundane explanation :-), ...
Except maybe for reading messages on Paranet written by people
who according to the mail systems don't exist...
Phil
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From: ncar!usl.edu!pgf9240
Subject: Ball Lightning
Date: 13 Oct 91 03:11:57 GMT
From: pgf9240@usl.edu (Fraering Philip G)
Has anyone out there seen ball lightning? Are you willing to share
details of your experience? If so, please contact me at
pgwres01@ucs.usl.edu.
Thank You.
Phil
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From: Sheldon.Wernikoff@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Pritchard
Date: 13 Oct 91 04:08:00 GMT
Hi Dave,
I just received the Pritchard paper in today's mail. Thank you
kindly. I've only had a chance to glance through it briefly, but
will post my comments shortly. BTW, I hope you received my last
message - I was using a new fido gateway.
Thanks again,
Sheldon
--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: Sheldon.Wernikoff@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
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From: ncar!apple.com!well!ddrasin
Subject: Math on Mars
Date: 13 Oct 91 11:35:34 GMT
From: well!ddrasin@apple.com (Dan Drasin)
+ From: Don.Ecker@p0.f3.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Don Ecker)
+ First, Dr. Marina Popovich DID NOT MENTION THE PHOBOS INCIDENT IN
+ ANY OF HER TALKS.
Don, I attended her talk in Tucson, and did hear her mention the
Phobos incident. She also showed one of the infamous photos,
although, as I recall, this was to the people who gathered around
her after the talk. I could be mistaken, but I believe you were out
front at the UFO magazine booth during at least some of her talk,
and therefore might not have caught the mention.
+ a mentor of Hoaglands, Z. Sitchen.
Hoagland was on to Sitchin (sic) and his material as early as 1984.
I'm not aware of his being considered a 'mentor,' however. Hoagland
and I agree to disagree about many things (and particularly about
how to present them!) but, imho, he has done important work and
should be given credit where due.
+ Earl Torun. Torun does work for the Defense Mapping Agency, my
+ heavan, must be CIA, DIA, FBI, NSA, NRO, etc. Take your pick.
Don, if Erol (not 'Earl') is an intelligence agent, I'm Mickey
Mouse. Get to know him sometime. Might even make a fine interview
for the magazine. And while you're at it you might apologize to him
for having posted such an outrageous accusation. His civilian
employment at the DMA is incidental to his independent work on the
Cydonia math.
+ Hoagland is fond of making grand pronouncements on Mars, Egypt,
the Pyramids, and now is claiming he deciphered the crop circles and
they relate to the FACE. Oh**please spare me, just how did he
accomplish this?
Most unfortunately, Hoagland overstates a lot of things.... but if
you don't know how he claims to have accomplished this, how do you
know he hasn't in fact done so? Some things are true even if Richard
Hoagland says they're true.
What Hoagland, Torun and others have essentially done is to
contribute a few more threads to a growing fabric of known
mathematical correspondences. The Scottish astronomer Duncan Lunan,
and others, have been on to this material for years, and have drawn
links between the great pyramids of Egypt and Mexico, the orbits of
Phobos and Deimos, and many other key measurements. This work is
utterly uncanny, and I think you would find it fascinating if you
looked into it.
Like it or not, Hoagland has made at least one major discovery as a
result of his studying the Cydonia math: that the preponderance of
major volcanic and vortical ('red spot') phenomena on the bodies in
the solar system occur at latitudes around 19.5 degrees, though no
one can, as yet, explain why. (These include the Hawaiian chain on
Earth, Olympus Mons on Mars, etc., etc.). 19.5 degrees, by the way,
is the latitude at which a polar-oriented tetrahedron intersects its
curcumsphere. In other words, take a tetrahedron (three-sided
equilateral pyramid) and surround it with a perfectly-fitting
sphere. If one point of the tetrahedrom is at the South pole, the
other three will fall at 19.5 degrees north latitude.
By the way, Mark J. Carlotto's new book, THE MARTIAN ENIGMAS - A
CLOSER LOOK, will be out in January (North Atlantic Books). It is a
sober report on his five years of image-reconstruction, enhancement
and analysis of the controversial Viking photos. The book is a
collaboration between Dr. Carlotto and myself (as editor-designer),
and contains the most complete collection of the photos of the Face
and other mysteries currently available, including some photographic
material previously unavailable to the genereal public. It also
explains the image enhancement processes, fractal analyses, etc.,
that Carlotto has applied to the 1976 Viking pictures. We've been
very careful to spearate fact from speculation -- *and* have
included most of the major observations and speculations made by
various researchers over the years.
+ From: Kurt.Lochner@f22.n14766.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Kurt Lochner)
>> The land forms found on Mars are NOT those done by Nature. The
>> angles formed by the pyramids are impossible for nature to create.
+ Whoa! What about the calcium carbonate molecules just
+ mentioned after the 20000 books written?
Kurt, the Martian landform in question, the *D&M Pyramid* is
roughly two *kilometers* in its longest dimension. The forces that
assemble molecules do not operate at that scale. The observation in
question was made by Erol Torun, who is a professional geographer,
and whose avocations are geomorphology and mathematics. He has
theorized in considerable detail about the D&M's shape, and is
hard-pressed to account for it in terms of natural forces.
+ There are too many variations on the e/pi constant. Even the
+ latitude on Mars where the city/ face/pyramid are found is a
+ function of e/pi.
Would you like it a little more precisely than that? The
abovementioned D&M Pyramid, which, according to Torun, arguably
contains over twenty proportional relationships involving e, pi,
sqrt 3, sqrt 5, etc., actually straddles north latitude 40.869
degrees, whose arc-tangent equals e divided by pi! The forthcoming
book by Carlotto contains a detailed explanation of these claims.
+ This is quite a bit like Bruce Cathey's geomancy, which I also
+ find to make no mathematical 'sense' and I attribute much of this
+ approach to the truncation/rounding-off errors that one might not
+ suspect of hand-held calculators. While the numbers appear 'close
+ enough for government work', I do not accept the accuracy of such
+ equipment for my own work, which includes engineering and physics
+ homework of the last eight years of my life.
Kurt, the problem is that these measurements are *abundant*. Even
if they were accurate to a degree (rather than tenths or hundredths
of a degree, as in Torun's measurements) their sheer number would
very likely defy any serious attempts at explanation in natural
terms. In 'systems thinking,' accuracy trades off against frequency:
the presence of large numbers of approximations makes up for a lack
of precision in any given measurement.
Debunkers often sieze on this question of precision, BUT THEY NEVER,
*EVER* SPECIFY THEIR TOLERANCES! (Tell me, Kurt, how precisely
rectilinear does a terrestrial village have to be laid out in order
to appear as a man-made construct in a satellite photo?) They also
love to bandy about phrases such as 'extraordinary claims demand
extraordinary evidence' without *ever* defining or quantifiying what
is 'ordinary' or "extraordinary." Why not? Because it can't be done.
The line is always drawn subjectively and always comes down to human
beings making judgment calls within a consensus reality, usually
heavily weighted politically. Yesterday's extraordinary is often
today's ordinary, but nobody seems to notice.
Thoughtless debunkers have also claimed that you can go fishing in a
natural landscape and find random points that form any angle you
want. While that may be true, it does *not* reflect the sequence in
which these discoveries were actually made in the Viking photos of
Mars. The separate anomalous objects were found *first*. Only
*afterward* were their relationships measured and found to be
mathematically interesting.
+> Carl Sagan and Richard Hoagland used to be friends. In public,
+> Sagan says that this information is nonsense, but in private, he
+> says something quite different.
+ That's because Sagan has championed the cause of Science as a
+ national goal of literacy.
Kurt, as a scientist, shouldn't you be particularly careful of
providing explanations off the top of your head?
+> * COMING NEXT: My discussions with Wendelle Stevens
+> regarding Grey *
+> * aliens from the Reticulum Star cluster and
+> his playing of a *
+> * cassette tape of the sounds of one of their
+> space ships. *
+ Might I tell you about the sound being somewhat easily fabricated
+ on a polyphonic sampling keyboard? Gas Music from Jupiter, indeed!
Forgive me, Kurt, but that kind of remark smacks of 'instant science.'
If you haven't performed an actual ananlysis on the sounds in
question all you're left with is personal opinion. In science,
however, one point of view requires as much proof as another.
In the infamous Meier case, the recorded spacecraft sounds really
did sound like some kind of hokey Hollywood flying-saucer noise...
until a real analysis was actually performed. As you may know, the
waveforms turned out to be so complex and so unusually modulated as
to defy identification. Evidently they could not have been produced
by any known commercially-available synthesizer of the day (mid
1970s).
Dan Drasin
ddrasin@well.sf.ca.us%Apple.Com
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Don.Sudduth@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Don Sudduth)
Subject: Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Myste
Date: 13 Oct 91 06:19:00 GMT
>Time delay, and shadow distortion? Very difficult because time
>is universal. The person would now be out of sync with the rest
>of the world. Or did they have a speed-up to get back in phase?
>Shadows are so close to us that the delay would only be from
-----
I don't quite know what you're trying to say here - however, it is
quite possible for a shadow to lag behind an object (granted it
would take tremendous amounts of energy). The delay would take
place between the object being illuminated and the shadow. The
photons from a distant source would just have to take a longer time
to go from the illuminated object to the area where the shadow is.
This implies a much MUCH greater distance (assuming the photons are
traveling at the speed of light), or, the object on which the shadow
is being projected exists at a different moment that the person or
object being illuminated.
--
Don Sudduth - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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INTERNET: Don.Sudduth@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
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From: Jim.Graham@f13.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Graham)
Subject: Re: ogden object
Date: 12 Oct 91 16:25:33 GMT
In a message sent 19:56: 09 Oct 91, Linda Bird wrote to
ncar!amix.commodore.com!vanth!jms:
LB> writing on the
LB> Object is said to be microscopic, yet a sample of it
LB> turned out to be
LB> gibberish (altho it did look Arabic).
Hello Linda.
When you say "gibberish", are you referring to gibberish under the assumption
that it _is_ Arabic or do you mean that it is gibberish regardless of what
language it _may_ be?
BTW: Who proved it to be gibberish and _how_?
Regards,
Jim
)
--
Jim Graham - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Ogden Object
Date: 13 Oct 91 01:43:00 GMT
Hello Mike,
Thanks for the posting of the newspaper clipping regarding the O.O. and
it's connection to Idaho. It would be very handy if someone could get
a photo of these "nuclear wastes" so we could see if that object is
among them. Wonder if that big "O" ring that Guy Kirkwood had the
photo of was radioactive...? Would it just be sitting out in a ditch,
as it seemed to be if it was contaminated?
Thanks,
Linda
--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: Jim.Speiser@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: Hudson Valley Messages
Date: 13 Oct 91 16:09:00 GMT
In a message to Jim Speiser <10-11-91 01:15> Vladimir Godic wrote:
VG> Jim,
VG>
VG> This reminds me very much of Harry Belafonte's song : "There's hole
VG> in the bucket dear Lisa..."
"But with WHAT shall I investigate it, dear Liza, dear Liza...."
Jim
--
Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: Steve.Rose@p0.f134.n109.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Steve Rose)
Subject: Re: (none)
Date: 13 Oct 91 09:53:57 GMT
Did you know, Vladimir Godic said to ncar!ecn.purdue.edu!lush
on 05 Oct 91 22:49:00
VG> That's fine but can anyone tell me why is God so concerened with THIS
VG> planet and wants to punish it. What's the difference between planet
VG> Earth and other planets in the Universe? Will they be "punished" too?
Reminds me of the old line...You think THIS world is crowded, wait till
you get to heaven. And they are all dead! ;-)
--
Steve Rose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: Steve.Rose@p0.f134.n109.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Steve Rose)
Subject: Re: FATIMA
Date: 13 Oct 91 09:56:54 GMT
PP> So the 11:11 people are a year ahead of Fatima, and according to the
PP> Nostradamas prediction experts, it already happened last year. The Dr.
PP> Corder files are about 99% incorrect. Label me skeptical to the max on
PP> the above... --- TBBS v2.1/NM
And sane...to boot. ;-)
--
Steve Rose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: Rick.Moen@f27.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Crop circle researcher
Date: 2 Oct 91 04:07:07 GMT
> I've been following the crop circle phenomenon with some interest,
> and so was very interested by the admission of hoaxing by the two
> gentlemen in the UK. While I have little or no opinion myself on
> the subject, I must say that I found myself stricken with hysterics
> upon hearing that crop circle researchers had suddenly become
> *skeptics* themselves (notice the small 's', so as to avoid any
> possible confusion with or controversy over the term with one right
> honourable R. Moen ;-), and were refusing to accept this as possible.
>
> I get the sense that these folks have about the same level of
> integrity as messrs. Pons and Fleishmann.
The claim that these two old geezers were responsible for thousands of
circles all over the U.K. does indeed sound implausible, doesn't it?
I certainly don't buy it. [Shocked silence descends on the crowd.]
Of course, there's an angle to this that's been a bit neglected: Was
Bower and Chorley's claimed method a believable way to make crop
circles? (I've been a bit busy of late, and would be interested in echo
readers' views on this, since they've likely been paying closer
attention.) Thoughtful cereologists, whatever their initial opinions,
ought to be considering various possibilities, including hoaxes not just
by Bower & Chorley but also possible unknown others. The best way to
find out if, under what conditions, and to what degree hoaxing is likely
is to have some creative people try to make convincing ones.
What I'm getting at is that I get the impression that many cereologists
dismiss the possibility of hoaxing in particular cases without much
effort on anyone's part at really trying it. This is reminiscent of
scientists pooh-poohing the idea of psi-experiment subjects fooling them
without consulting competent conjurers (which has happened often). Of
course, the situation is not exactly parallel, since cereologists don't
have circle-hoaxing experts to consult, with the possible partial
exception of that British pair.
Best Regards,
Rick M.
("skeptic" with a small "s", indeed ;-> but also
Secretary, Bay Area Skeptics, and
Member, Electronic Communications Subcommittee, CSICOP,
not purporting to speak for anyone but himself)
--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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