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Info-ParaNet Newsletters Volume 1 Number 395
Info-ParaNet Newsletters Volume I Number 395
Friday, April 26th 1991
Today's Topics:
Re: Rick Redux
(none)
Bill Cooper
Re: Question from a UFOlogy Sig User - Help
Re: HUMAN VISITORS
Re: Ivan Sanderson
Our humanoid 'visitors'
Incident-Indian Point
Re: Statements of acceptance
Re: Human visitors
(none)
Re: Extraordinary claims
Re: Statements of accepta
Csicop Members
Phoenix journals
OBE
Re: Question from a UFOlogy Sig User - Help
Re: Redlight
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John.Cockrell@p0.f150.n30163.z1.FIDONET.ORG (John Cockrell)
Subject: Re: Rick Redux
Date: 18 Apr 91 15:01:00 GMT
Well, jeez, axe to grind? I dunno about that one. I was simply
exasperated at the strains everyone on this thread was taking to
"politely" flame each other. Not to stir up aggression, but I thought
that the main philosophy of the BBS was to freely express opinions,
popular or not. In this area, where belief is called upon strongly to
support any opinion (i.e. ufo's, etc) it is extremely easy for
unscrupulous individuals (oops, polite flame) to take advantage of that
belief to th own ends, but that's all common knowledge now. I guess my
point is taking into account openmindedness, and respect for other
peoples integrity, and politeness, and so on and so forth, there is
STILL a point where you just have to say, "That's Bullsh*t, and this
guy is a real rats' *ss for expecting us, and getting some of us, to
believe what he's saying". I think it's better to come right out and
say it than hemhaw around trying not to break the rules of the bbs.
Sure it's not a good idea to go around slamming people with no reason,
but in the context of a frenzied, complex discussion as this thread has
been, the reasons for stating personal opinions have valid purpose.
Just Wonderin',
J.C.
--
John Cockrell - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: ncar!ecn.purdue.edu!lush
Subject: (none)
Date: 20 Apr 91 19:23:25 GMT
From: lush@ecn.purdue.edu (Gregory B Lush)
? When you relieze that the universe is expanding in all
? directions at the speed of light, and has been for all of time. It
? is immpossible to even estimate how long that is.
I've heard people say that the universe is expanding like this before.
What is the evidence that is cited to justify this statement? I'm
not saying that it is wrong; I just don't know what it is based on.
Greg (lush@ecn.purdue.edu)
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From: Steve.Rose@p1.f134.n109.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Steve Rose)
Subject: Bill Cooper
Date: 18 Apr 91 06:45:58 GMT
cw> are knows as Skeptics) Eventually
cw> people will wise up and relieze that
cw> there are UFOs, but the question is...
cw> WHEN? I can't understand how people
cw> can believe that we are all alone in the universe.
You, as well as many others, make the same mistake in the statement above. You
assume since a person states there are no manned UFOs, they believe there can
be no life elsewhere. I...as one of those 'Show me' types...believe nothing of
the sort. I am the first to foster a belief in life forms elsewhere, as many
others do. I just have NOT been convinced of their physical PRESENSE here on
this planet, in this present day time frame.
I could turn your statement around and say, "Flashing red lights do not an
alien aircraft make!" Show me something more convincing and I'll sing with the
rest of them...here in Washington and elsewhere. :-)
--
Steve Rose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: Linda.Bird@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Question from a UFOlogy Sig User - Help
Date: 21 Apr 91 05:35:00 GMT
Egads! Sounds like William Cooper.....
--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: Linda.Bird@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: HUMAN VISITORS
Date: 21 Apr 91 05:47:00 GMT
Because they/it are curious? I can think of no better reason...
--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: Linda.Bird@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Ivan Sanderson
Date: 21 Apr 91 06:03:00 GMT
Clark,
I remember reading the one about the farmer. His voice, crying for
help, was heard for some time from the spot where he disappeared.
Kinda gives ya the willies...
Linda
--
Linda Bird - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Our humanoid 'visitors'
Date: 21 Apr 91 07:59:00 GMT
> P.S. Another widespread assumption also needs to be
> challenged: There is
> no reason to assume that individual 'greys' are inherently
> (i.e., genetically)
> brighter than individual human beings. Remember, Cortes
> wasn't necessarily
> Montezuma's intellectual superior, merely the product of a
> culture that had
> evolved a vastly more complex technology...
Hello Scott, and thanks for your interesting message.
I think your postscript may make the key point in my argument: Have
you read any of Vallee's books? You might be particularly
interested in "Passport to Magonia" and "Dimensions".
Montezuma may well have been Cortes' intellectual/spiritual/moral
equal. He was certainly the Spaniard's military superior, too.
The combined might of his empire could easily have swept away the
Spaniards lock, stock & arquebus. But instead of resisting or
questioning the motives of the Conquistadores, the Aztecs admitted
the fox into the henhouse because they were expecting something
that looked like the fox. Six months of rampant smallpox and the
complete spiritual collapse of Aztec society did the rest.
Which makes your analogy * especially * appropriate. Are we any
different at all from the ill-starred Aztecs? No, we are cut from
exactly the same cloth.
Our expectations of intelligent aliens, will govern our
attitudes toward them if/when they show themselves. Actually, I
take the contrary view: Whatever our expectations of these
creatures may be, that MUST be what these creatures want us to
perceive them to be.
As a result, they may not be aliens at all. All we really know is
that they act the way we expect spacefarers to act (coming here in
spaceships, then piling out with shovels and digging holes???
Beside highways? In parks??? Conducting random gynecological
examinations??)
Who knows, they may be leprechauns. Or sprites. Or fawns, trolls,
d'genii, kami, angels, sylphs, demons of Beelzebub's legions, or
who knows what else. They may always have been here. They may be
inextricably linked to us -- our counterparts in a parallel
universe, perhaps? Or future beings keeping events on track
throughout the holographic universe? And conversely, we may be
inextricably linked to them.
On the other hand, they could be smelly, stupid, shaggy cannibals that
eat cow's lips (when they can't get hold of a hitchhiker) and wash
their snacks down with beakers of ammonia. They just appear to be
something different, because it serves their purpose. Or they may
appear to be light-years ahead of us because they are terribly
vulnerable to us in ways we can't imagine ... because we think we're
inferior.
Get my drift? I'll stop with the syllogisms. It's good to have an
anthropologist on the net, and if you've read the books I mentioned
above I hope we can get a discussion going about them.
Best,
Clark
--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: Don.Ecker@f3.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Don Ecker)
Subject: Incident-Indian Point
Date: 21 Apr 91 07:02:00 GMT
In one of the most dramatic events to occur in recent UFO history,
is still today one of the most covered up and least understood
event on record. We have all heard of the Hudson Valley UFO events,
but how many people know that the Indian Point Nuclear Reactor was
also involved? Well Ok, if you are a regular ParaNet member, you
do know. But the point is, most people do not know that this
happened, and is STILL ongoing. Phil Imbrogno was one of the
investigators to these events, and was also co-author with J. A.
Hynek in the opus that relays what went on in the Hudson Valley.
( NIGHT SIEGE - Ballantine Books Copyright 1987 )
Imbrogno was extensively interviewed by UFO Magazine for the
following story. Turn to ASK UFO and read about the "Incident at
Indian Point."
Don Ecker
--
Don Ecker - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: ncar!eniac.seas.upenn.edu!snelson
Subject: Re: Statements of acceptance
Date: 25 Apr 91 19:15:37 GMT
From: snelson@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Steven Nelson)
In _Report on Communion_ by Ed Conroy, Phil Klass stated specifically the proof
that he wanted. What follows is reproduced without permission, but it's short.
KLASS:...I'm sometimes asked, 'Well, haven't you found a case that you could
not explain?' To give a short, meaningful response to that, in one of my books
and in many of my lectures, I have offered that if, at any time that I'm alive,
an honest-to-goodness extraterrestrial craft should land anywhere in the world,
or crash, or a physical artifact should be found and examined by the National
Academy of Sciences and they were to say this thing could not be made on this
earth-- anything that would irrevocably, unquestionably prove beyond all
doubt that we've had at least one extraterrestrial visitor-- then I would say
to those who've bought my book, 'Mail your book back to me, and... I will
refund the full purchase price...'
Obviously, Klass is relying on others' scientific expertise to make his
decision, but as an editor of Aviation Week magazine, relying on scientific
reports made by mainstream organizations is part of his job.
So long as there is an alternative to claiming that we are being
visited by other planets, Klass will take it.
-Steve Nelson
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From: ncar!neptune.convex.com!swarren
Subject: Re: Human visitors
Date: 25 Apr 91 21:31:45 GMT
From: swarren@neptune.convex.com (Steve Warren)
+From: Jim.Greenen@f29.n363.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Greenen)
+Subject: Human visitors
+Date: 17 Apr 91 13:38:00 GMT
[...]
+other solar system. If you read the great book, it mentions the
+angels came down and mated with man. We can assume that a sprirt
+can't mate with a mortal, then who were the angels they mention?
[...]
Well, if you're going to take the authority of the Bible (by agreeing
that angels came down and mated with human women) then obviously the beings
referred to in the Bible as angels *are* in fact capable of mating with
humans, according to the Bible. The Bible refers to angels as spirits, but
it never implies that *all they are* is spirits. They are also described as
having corporal bodies, although their spirits do not always inhabit their
bodies, according to the Bible. I can get specific references if you are
interested.
_.
--Steve ._||__ DISCLAIMER: All opinions are my own.
Warren v\ *| ----------------------------------------------
V {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; swarren@convex.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ncar!ecn.purdue.edu!lush
Subject: (none)
Date: 25 Apr 91 21:35:53 GMT
From: lush@ecn.purdue.edu (Gregory B Lush)
?
? From: John.Hicks@p2.f29.n363.z1.FIDONET.ORG (John Hicks)
? Subject: Again?
? Date: 17 Apr 91 19:25:00 GMT
?
?
? > Hmmmm...isn't it about the time for them to gear up for the
? > upcoming tourist season? This seems to becoming a springtime
? > ritual.
?
? Good point. Seems like something happens early every April.
?
? jbh
Even if the local powers that be are taking advantage of the
media hype to attract tourist dollars, that does not make the
events less real. It just makes the local government smart.
Greg (lush@ecn.purdue.edu)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Rick.Moen@f27.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Extraordinary claims
Date: 21 Apr 91 19:51:59 GMT
John --
I note your 160-line posting on scientific method in the INFO.PARANET
echo-conference. I will consider discussing this topic with you in some
more appropriate forum, such as FidoNet science or a Usenet sci.*
newsgroup, if you like, and will gladly overlook the various smear
tactics, and ongoing use of such verbiage as "whining" and "platitudes",
and assume _tentatively_ (as you correctly but needlessly note is the
nature of all scientific knowledge) that you seek a substantive
discussion.
'Won't hold my breath, though.
Best Regards,
Rick M.
--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: Rick.Moen@f27.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Rick Moen)
Subject: Re: Statements of accepta
Date: 21 Apr 91 20:10:23 GMT
John --
I note what seem to be your objections to my posting to Jim Speiser.
I see you are still trying to imply something about my allegedly
deleting download files or listing them classified according to
credibility, something I never said I did, and have in fact specifically
said I don't.
I note that you deny attempting a two-year smear campaign on various
echoes, preferring a more agreeable characterisation. Whatever. I
think you've made your intent abundantly clear.
I note that you indicate comprehension that I am _not_ a member of
CSICOP, but serve as a member of its Electronic Communications
Subcommittee, and do not purport to speak for it. Good. That's
progress of a sort.
I note that you ask if it would be appropriate for you to ask if I
support CSICOP's views. I don't know if the question is appropriate,
but I will consider the question to be asked. Before I could answer it,
we would have to establish what CSICOP's views _are_, and then you could
ask me how I felt about each of those views. Perhaps it would be easier
if you were to just formulate a "view" and ask my opinion. However, I
don't really see the point, much less why this should interest
INFO.PARANET.
Lastly, I note that you seem to second my suggestion of contacting
UFOlogists to ask them what evidence would suffice to convince them of
the ET hypothesis. How nice.
Best Regards,
Rick M.
--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: Rick.Moen@f27.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Rick Moen)
Subject: Csicop Members
Date: 21 Apr 91 20:39:39 GMT
John T's latest missive brings up a matter I've been meaning to ask
someone about: Basically everyone with at least a passing aquaintance
with CSICOP knows that it's a _committee_, which puts out a quarterly
journal, and that the committee is the only actual CSICOP _membership_;
that the Fellows, Scientific and Technical Consultants, and subcommittee
chairs listed in "Skeptical Inquirer" are not "members" (much less are
the unnamed _other_ subcommittee members). Occasionally, some persons
disregard this fact for rhetorical reasons, but we can ignore them.
The committee itself is technically referred to by CSICOP employees as
the "Executive Council" or "Executive Committee" (a fact _not_ generally
known). What I don't know is its current membership. Obviously, it
includes Paul Kurtz (chairman, humanist high-muckity-muck, and prof. of
philosophy at SUNY Buffalo). I would guess the rest to be as follows:
James Alcock (prof. of psychology, York U.), Kendrick Frazier (editor),
Phil Klass, Randi, and Ray Hyman (prof. of psychology, U. of Oregon).
Possibly CSICOP's Executive Director also serves -- the fourth and
current one being Barry Karr.
Do you know anything about this? It's curious that the list is never
published in their journal.
Best Regards,
Rick M.
--
Rick Moen - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: Bryce.Eckstein@f10.n140.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bryce Eckstein)
Subject: Phoenix journals
Date: 17 Apr 91 16:36:00 GMT
Hello Gregory!
In a msg of <08 Apr 91>, Gregory B Lush writes to All:
GBL> Well, I broke down. Here is an excerpt from one of the Phoenix
GBL> Journals. It is included in both 'Space-Gate--The Veil Removed'
GBL> and in 'Spiral to Economic Disaster' from America West Publ.
Can you give me any information as to where I can obtain a copy of the Phoenix
Journals?
Thanks.
Bryce
--
Bryce Eckstein - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: James.Nugent@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (James Nugent)
Subject: OBE
Date: 22 Apr 91 22:32:00 GMT
Well I have read multitudes of info. on OBE's and so far nothing written has
helped me to experience one purposely. I have heard a lot about a 'silver
strand' that connects the astral body with the physical. It existes in much
literature and in many documented(not proved) cases. As for
'higher-dimentional life forms that use machines to capture astral bodys' I
have so far only heard it from you. If you are refering to L. Ron Hubbard
maybe he should just stay with science-fiction. The idea could make one
hell of book though.
I believe I experienced an OBE once but haven't been able to duplicate it.
You may want to talk with someone who has them if you want to kind-of get
an understanding of what is involved.
There are supposidly many ways to go out-of-body. I'll leave it up to you
to find one as none have worked for me.
--
James Nugent - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: Clark.Matthews@f816.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Clark Matthews)
Subject: Re: Question from a UFOlogy Sig User - Help
Date: 22 Apr 91 13:41:00 GMT
> Egads! Sounds like William Cooper.....
Oh my Goodness! Is THAT how Mr. Cooper sounds?! Heavens to Betsy!!
I shall sue him, just as soon as I get my flat tires fixed.
Cheers,
Otis
PS -- hehehehhehe
--
Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422
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From: ak842@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
Subject: Re: Redlight
Date: 26 Apr 91 20:54:47 GMT
From: ak842@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Douglas Dever)
Don't you hate those pesky landing lights, and anti-collision lights
on an airplane... Either that, or John might be right... tourist season.
This is one sighting which for some reason I really doubt. Just like when
the crest moon was visible in the middle of the afternoon a few days ago
and i kid at school said, 'Look up there... it's a UFO.' People need to
look into something before they scream 'Quick, get a scientist, call the
police, better yet, call the paper! IT'S A UFO!!!'
--
__ Douglas A. Dever __ ! INTERNET: ak842@cleveland.freenet.edu
****** IRC CHAT ****** ! ac502@medina.freenet.edu (soon I-net)
****** Niltsiar ****** ! BITNET: ak842%cleveland.freenet.edu@cunyvm
I cannot be held responsible for this message since my foot is in my mouth.
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