Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Abduction Digest Number 47
Abduction Digest, Number 47
Tuesday, February 11th 1992
(C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service. All Rights Reserved.
Today's Topics:
Abductions
Answers
Answers continued
Abductions
Re: Premature Births
Breakdown
Abductions
Your Wildcat!
Abduction Research
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: David.Jacobs@f21.n1010.z9.PARANET.ORG (David Jacobs)
Subject: Abductions
Date: 3 Feb 92 07:34:52 GMT
I have recently written in my new book that to the best of my knowledge all
abductees have been physically not in place during the abduction. This
statement seems rather sweeping but I feel that it is accurate. The Puddy
case is interesting but quite obviously the event that you describe is not an
abduction. Mrs Puddy might indeed be an abductee (the sightings that she had
earlier experienced might be evidence of this) but the incident in the car has
all the earmarks of either being a "channeled" episode or a flashback to a
previous event, or evidence of mental instability. Whereas on the surface it
might appear that this has all the hallmarks of an apparent abduction, in fact
the description that she gave of the entity, the entity's movements, the
entity's motivations, and so forth, would be immediately suspicious to me. Her
description of the inside of a UFO might well have been picked up either from
a previous abduction or from some outside conventional source. The only way
that one can find out these things with a reasonable degree of assurance is by
doing hypnosis with somebody who thoroughly understands the abduction
phenomenon so that the hypnotist and/or researcher can tell when she veers off
what is presently known about abductions. I hope that my book will help in
that endeavor.
All of this goes back to the problem that Jim Speiser brought up about
what is to be believed in conscious recollections of unusual events. People
will confabulate, they will remember things wrongly, they will unconsciously
elaborate and add material, they will slip into "channeling," and they will
exhibit evidence of mental abberations. Separating the wheat from the chaff
is a difficult task. But the most important thing to understand is that there
is wheat. Dwelling on the chaff is like spending all of one's time ruminating
about UFO sightings that are identified! It was the sightings that could not
be identified that brought us all here.
It is true that we only have a few cases of uninvolved bystanders
witnessing an abduction of another person. This situation is involved with
the technology employed for carrying out the abduction. Budd Hopkins is at
present working on a sensational case that does include bystanders witnessing
the abduction. He will probably write a book about it and it will go a very
long way towards putting this controversy to rest. The IUR will also publish
an article of mine addressing the issue.
Budd and I have many cases in which people witness others being abducted
and are not abducted themselves. They are often "switched off" so that they
can do nothing about it and their accounts are usually, but not always,
recovered with the use of hypnosis. We also have many cases in which several
people are abducted at once and they can independently confirm their
experiences without knowing that their fellow abductees have also remembered
the event.
Incidentally, Jenny Randles talks about the Sunderland case but makes no
reference to her mother seeing her in bed during a supposed abduction.
Keep up the good work!
Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1
--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: David.Jacobs@f21.n1010.z9.PARANET.ORG
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: David.Jacobs@f21.n1010.z9.PARANET.ORG (David Jacobs)
Subject: Answers
Date: 4 Feb 92 06:49:27 GMT
Sheldon, I was not aware of your long messages on file, and I only recently
read them. I will try to answer some of your queries as best I can, but you
must remember that I certainly do not have all the answers to all questions.
Yes, it is possible that those people who are abducted and who ae alone
and who are not seen by others might in some way still be physically in place
during the abduction. This is something that we cannot be sure of. In the
same way we cannot be sure that they did not fly to Mars during their
abduction. We cannot be sure that they did not meet with President Bush and
then both forgot the incident. Please pardon the humor, but we cannot prove a
negative. All the evidence that we have points to the fact that people are
not physically in place during an abduction and none of the evidence we have
points to their being in place (the Puddy case not withstanding--see my
remarks to Keith Basterfield).
Could two, three, four or more people have a shared fantasy inwhich they
all see each other being abducted and then relate the same events in minute
detail? Yes, I suppose anything is possible. Is there any evidence for this?
Not a shred. In fact even though Benjamin Simon suggested the Hills were
involved with a shared fantasy, or folie a deux, there was also no evidence
for this diagnosis other than what he thought. You must remember that shared
fantasies in rich, minute, extraordinary detail and length are so rare that
they are practically nonexistent and most psychiatrists will never see a case
of it.
Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1
--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: David.Jacobs@f21.n1010.z9.PARANET.ORG
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: David.Jacobs@f21.n1010.z9.PARANET.ORG (David Jacobs)
Subject: Answers continued
Date: 4 Feb 92 07:19:27 GMT
Sorry I pressed the wrong buttons and inadvertently saved the message in
mid-word.
Do people who see others being abducted associate with them afterwards?
Usually that is true. In fact many of the episodes do not come to light until
a very long time after the event. Are they in collusion to promote a hoax? I
guess it's possible, one cannot prove a negative and therefore we will never
be able to prove that it did not happen. Is there any evidence for this? Not
a shred. Did they just associate together and therefore pick up the stories
either consciously or unconsciously? I suppose that this is also possible,
but we have once again found no evidence for it whatsoever.
You mention that the data presented that you have read seems to suggest
that the abduction phenomenon is internally generated in greater numbers than
what I and my colleagues say. The only thing that I can say to that is that
in my research and in Budd Hopkins', the idea that abductions are internally
generated has been carefully considered and rejected as not fitting the
evidence as we have found it in our studies. John Mack, a professor of
psychiatry at Harvard University, shares our views and is at a loss to explain
how these accounts could possibly be internally generated given the knowledge
that we have about the human mind and about the abduction phenomenon. I have
tried to address myself to these points in my book (perhaps not as successfully
as I should have).
How are memories stored in the mind? I used the word "mind" on purpose
because I do not know the physiological mechanism for the storage of memories
in the brain. In fact, neurologists are just beginning to make some headway
in this area. Memory is not well understood even in the most normal of
situations and I could not hope to understand how abduction memories
physiologically differ. The best that I can do is to describe the process of
recollection and try to draw analogies to best make it understood. The best
way I can put it is that the memories are "stored" in an "area of the mind"
that is not amenable to "normal" recall.
Does abuse cause abductions? There is not a shred of evidence to support
this contention. It does not seem to matter whether people have been abused
or not. Are there more people abused who are abductees than not? To the best
of my abilities to estimate, the answer is no. Unfortunately I have not
conducted a scientific poll to find out for sure. Of course, since science
cannot prove a negative, we can never be absolutely sure that abductees were
not abused even though they may have absolutely no awareness of it whatsoever.
The problem here is that the abduction phenomenon itself constitutes a form
of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse. How does one differentiate this
type of abuse from the more common variety? Now we are involved with the
complexity of studying the abduction phenomenon and its effects on the
victims. I have talked a little bit about this in a piece that I wrote for
the Journal of UFO Studies which is due out shortly (actually I am not sure
whether Mike Swords is going to run my article--we'll see).
Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1
--
David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: David.Jacobs@f21.n1010.z9.PARANET.ORG
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.PARANET.ORG (Michael Corbin)
Subject: Abductions
Date: 4 Feb 92 14:03:00 GMT
David,
Recently, Budd Hopkins was in Denver for a series of lectures on abduction
research. He was a very captive guest and the people coming to the lecture
enjoyed him immensely.
I am curious on a couple of points:
1) I have heard that there are "occult-" related incidents that usually
follow an alleged abduction experience. An example is poltergeist activity,
heightened psychic perception, etc. How many of your studies does this occur
in? Have you found any type of patterns that would link a person's interest
or activities in such matters relevant to the experience?
2) CUFOS has just produced a very good video, 'Contact UFO: Alien
Abductions,' in which they produce statistics concerning data gleaned from
their abduction research. In the video, they state that a certain percentage
of abduction experiences involve torture. What does this mean to your
research?
3) Do you feel that the related experience is an accurate rendition of what
actually happens or do you feel that the recalled memory may be some type of
programmed memory, actually hiding the true experience?
Thanks for your time.
Mike
--
Michael Corbin - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.PARANET.ORG
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Steve.Stelter@f134.n109.z1.PARANET.ORG (Steve Stelter)
Subject: Re: Premature Births
Date: 8 Feb 92 02:50:00 GMT
I agree with you on the fact that some of the abductions could be memories
of seeing the doctors when being born, or possibly memories of other times
when the abducties might have been hospitalised for whatever reason. I myself
have been in the hospital twice and every now and again I wake up with same
recurring nightmare of people in blue standing around me doing whatever it
is they are doing. Believe me, it's a terrifying experiance. I'm not saying
that abductions do occur, but the majority of them are probobly just memories
of a hospital stay.
--
Steve Stelter - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Steve.Stelter@f134.n109.z1.PARANET.ORG
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Vladimir.Godic@f7.n1040.z9.PARANET.ORG (Vladimir Godic)
Subject: Breakdown
Date: 9 Feb 92 05:31:00 GMT
Due to a technical problem, we have lost some of the messages from
Paranet when I polled last Thursday, February 6. If anybody has sent
messages to Bill Chalker, Keith Basterfield (or myself) since
Saturday, February 1, would you kindly send them again. This is just
in case you have replied to some of our messages or have any queries.
We have had a few hiccups in transmission during the past two weeks.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Regards from "Down Under",
Vlad
--
Vladimir Godic - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Vladimir.Godic@f7.n1040.z9.PARANET.ORG
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: David.Jacobs@paranet.PARANET.ORG (David.Jacobs)
Subject: Abductions
Date: 8 Feb 92 06:31:42 GMT
Mike, abductees frequently report poltergeist or relaed activity
that happens to them. When this has been reported to me and I have
investigated it through hypnosis, the poltergeist activity
invariably turns out to be abduction related events. For example,
one man with whom I had worked for over a year reported a strange
expereince in his kitchen. He was making rice in an electric rice
maker and instead of it being done in the normal half-hour, it only
took two minutes. His "take" on the subject was that it was "them"
either sending him a "message" or playing a "joke" on him, or it was
a sort of miraculous situation, which in his world view, was just as
possible. We did a session on the rice incident and what had
happened was that he was in his kitchen making rice, an abduction
occurred, and he was returned an hour later. He had completely
forgotten about the abduction, collapsed the two ends of it and
"voila" the rice was cooked in two minutes. With abductees I have
yet to see strange episodes not related in some way to the abduction
phenomenon.
You also ask about the abduction video. I have not seen the
video nor was I consulted about it so I have no idea what is in it.
The question of torture is a difficult one. It depends on what you
mean by that term. If you mean the deliberate and malicious
infliction of bodily and/or mental pain upon someone to elicit
information of some kind, then the answer is no, it is not part of
the abduction scenario. If you mean the deliberate, but not
malicious, infliction of pain for purposes that are obviously
fulfilling some sort of physiological or mental agenda, then they
answer is yes, that does occur from time to time. If you mean that
the abductees consider their situations to be torturous--that is to
say unendurable because of the trauma inflicted by the entire
predicament that they find themselves in, then the answer is
definitely yes.
Mike you might also want to check out some of my previous
messages regarding the reliability of hypnosis and consciously
recalled memories. It is very common for people to "recall" events
that did not happen. It might be because that is the way they chose
to interpret the events, it might be because they have mixed up
dream material in the events, or it might be because specific and
detailed images have been placed in their minds which is remembered
as "reality."
The more you get into abduction research, the more you realize
how complicated and subtle it is.
Hope you liked Budd's presentation. I assume that he laid to
rest the idea that he wrote what the World Weekly News said he wrote.
Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1
--
David
Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: David.Jacobs@paranet.PARANET.ORG
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Sue.Widemark@f37.n114.z1.PARANET.ORG (Sue Widemark)
Subject: Your Wildcat!
Date: 8 Feb 92 22:45:00 GMT
> I Agreed! There are other places to discuss that matter. I
>too have a a Wildcat! board with a large religious discussion area.
>You too, of course,
>are more than welcome to call and join in conversation.
Gif me the number and I will gladly call!
{Sue}
{Cheese Whiz Wildcat! BBS 602-279-0793 <300/1200/2400}
--
Sue Widemark - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Sue.Widemark@f37.n114.z1.PARANET.ORG
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Sheldon.Wernikoff@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Abduction Research
Date: 10 Feb 92 00:51:01 GMT
In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <05-Feb-92 00:49>
David Jacobs wrote:
DJ> Yes, it is possible that those people who are abducted and who
DJ> are alone and who are not seen by others might in some way
DJ> still be physically in place during the abduction. This is
DJ> something that we cannot be sure of.
When you state "might in some way still be physically in place
during the abduction", what exactly do you mean by "some way"? You
seem to be implying that perhaps the abductee is simultaneously in
more than one locale. Am I interpreting this accurately?
Also, through your observations, what are the approximate
percentages of abductions that ARE witnessed by non-participants
vs. those that are singular, unobserved events?
DJ> All the evidence that we have points to the fact that people
DJ> are not physically in place during an abduction and none of the
DJ> evidence we have points to their being in place (the Puddy case
DJ> not withstanding--see my remarks to Keith Basterfield).
I shall have to read of this evidence in your new book, and
hopefully, be convinced of its validity. I always thought that a
great many cases could not really be proven either way, due to a
lack of witnesses.
DJ> The only thing that I can say to that is that in my research
DJ> and in Budd Hopkins', the idea that abductions are internally
DJ> generated has been carefully considered and rejected as not
DJ> fitting the evidence as we have found it in our studies. John
DJ> Mack, a professor of psychiatry at Harvard University, shares
DJ> our views and is at a loss to explain how these accounts could
DJ> possibly be internally generated given the knowledge that we
DJ> have about the human mind and about the abduction phenomenon.
I understand and agree to a limited extent. For example, PTSD seems
to be generated *only* through an external event, and many, but not
all abductees appear to be suffering from it. We must all remain
open to the possibility that abductions are occurring on at least
two levels. One being capable of explanation though more mundane
psychological methods, the second being resistant to our attack
with conventional approaches. The latter is of course the crux of
this conference, but the former is really of no less significance.
If I am interpreting you correctly, virtually every abductee that
has made themselves available to you, Hopkins, et al, has shown no
sign of psychological deviation from traditionally accepted values,
that could possibly account for their abduction experience. If
true, that exceedingly high degree of "normality" amongst your
sampling would in itself make that population segment "abnormal",
since a certain degree of statistical deviation would be
anticipated.
DJ> The problem here is that the abduction phenomenon itself
DJ> constitutes a form of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse.
DJ> How does one differentiate this type of abuse from the more
DJ> common variety?
Good point... and an even better question. Obviously, we have only
begun to scratch the surface of this mystery. A great deal more
contemplation of the observed data, and continued serious, ongoing
investigation is necessary to fully assess what we are confronted
with.
Again David, I look forward to reading _Secret Life_, which I
understand will be on the shelf in Chicago by the end of this week.
Hopefully, your undertaking will prompt other professionals to
enter into the abduction realm, advancing our knowledge and
understanding of this most bewildering event.
Take care,
Sheldon
--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Sheldon.Wernikoff@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
********************************************************************************
For permission to reproduce or redistribute this digest, contact:
DOMAIN Michael.Corbin@paranet.org
UUCP scicom!paranet.org!Michael.Corbin
****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************
Submissions UUCP {ncar,isis,csn}!scicom!abduct
Submissions DOMAIN abduct@scicom.alphacdc.com
Admin Address abduct-request@shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu
Mail to private Paranet/Fidonet addresses from the newsletters:
DOMAIN firstname.lastname@paranet.org
UUCP scicom!paranet.org!firstname.lastname
****************A**B**D**U**C**T**I**O**N****D**I**G**E**S**T*******************
