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Abduction Digest Number 57
Abduction Digest, Number 57
Thursday, April 16th 1992
(C) Copyright 1992 Paranet Information Service. All Rights Reserved.
Today's Topics:
Ellen Crystall
Larry King Show
Abduction Detection
Stuff
Research
Missing fetus syndrome
Larry King Show
Re: More Secret Life Questions
Re: _Secret Life_ Reviewed
Larry King Show
Re: More Secret Life Questions
Re: Larry King Show
Re: Secret Life - Questions, 2/3
Re: ABDUCTIONS
Re: OVERWEIGHT?
Re: _Secret Life_ Reviewed
Re: _Secret Life_ Reviewed
I'm back once again.
I'm back again (2)
Re: _Secret Life_ Reviewed
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From: Sheldon.Wernikoff@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Ellen Crystall
Date: 11 Apr 92 05:00:01 GMT
In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <07-April-92 21:34>
John Burke wrote:
JB> What did Lynn have to say about Ellen Crystall's book? Bob
JB> Girard ripped it to shreds in the latest Arcturus catalog.
Yes John, Bob utilizes interesting merchandising techniques in his
operation. No doubt Ellen's book is selling well for him. If *I*
perceive a product to be "trash", I don't carry it.
Anyway... what follows are Lynn Van Matre's comments on Crystall's
book _Silent Invasion: The Shocking Discoveries of a UFO
Researcher_, from Chicago Tribune, 30-March-92:
................................................................
Ellen Crystall's _Silent Invasion_ (Paragon House, $19.95) is a
readable but hardly "shocking" first-person account of the writer's
20 years of UFO encounters. Crystall, a doctoral candidate in music
composition at New York University and founder of the UFO research
group "Contactee", had never been abducted, but believes that she
and others have been specifically targeted for sightings.
Over the years Crystall has taken more than 1,000 photos of alien
craft and their occupants, some of which are included here.
Crystall's sightings and photos, most of them in rural Pine Bush,
NY, (and many of them corroborated by other eyewitnesses) have
garnered her a credible reputation as a UFO researcher. But even
the most sympathetic reader will be hard-pressed to see the murky
photos reproduced here in black and white as proof of UFO
phenomena. The "ships" are mostly blips of light on a field of
black, and the "aliens" are wholly indistinguishable.
Crystall speculates that aliens avoid being photographed clearly by
surrounding their craft with shortwave radiation that interferes
with the emulsion of photographic film. Like Jacobs, she concludes
that the aliens are not here to help save Earth. These
extraterrestrial tourists are pursuing their own agenda - whatever
that may be.
................................................................
Take care,
Sheldon
---
--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: Sheldon.Wernikoff@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Larry King Show
Date: 11 Apr 92 05:00:02 GMT
David... I just saw your exchange with Larry King and Phil Klass on
"Larry King Live", and must commend you on a job well done! You
certainly maintained your poise throughout the discussion.
Obviously (or should I say "incredibly"), as Klass stated, he had
not read _Secret Life_, and was not *at all* familiar with your
position regarding the psychological condition of your subjects.
In fact, your convictions are actually in direct opposition to
Klass's indictments.
Debate is an effective tool only when both factions are well
acquainted with the topic at hand. Klass was conspicuosly ill-
prepared, even with his inaccurate notes.
You and I, and other participants in this echo, certainly don't
agree on all aspects of the abduction phenomenon, but at least our
dialectic is constructive. Klass's assertions ensconced nothing but
his own obliviousness to your work.
-- Sheldon
--
Sheldon Wernikoff - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: John.Powell@p5.f134.n109.z1.FIDONET.ORG (John Powell)
Subject: Abduction Detection
Date: 5 Apr 92 23:53:10 GMT
In a message to John Powell <01 Apr 92 13:48> John Hicks wrote:
> JP> and the medical/psychiatric community
> JP> should be embarassed and ashamed that a professor of
> JP> history had to go out to the fringes to codify something
> JP> that _they_ should have already been focused on and
> JP> addressing...
JH> The medical community, in general, suffers from their group
JH> mindset even when they disagree; plus, I think the "gatekeepers"
JH> keep the fringe stuff out of professional journals.
Actually, I don't have a real problem with that. I read several technical
journals and I prefer that they have fact-based and generally after-the-fact
type of material. (Or at least solidly grounded speculation...)
JH> He's open-minded, but oddball stories from space alien
JH> magazines are pretty useless to him.
He's not alone in that regard! <grin>
JH> I think Dr. Jacobs used his abilities as a historian to great
JH> benefit in his abduction investigations; it's a much different
JH> viewpoint than the usual doctor-patient relationship.
Yes indeed, I thought it was a terrific piece of work! (I hope he gets the
recognition he deserves and I hope the Ashtray Commandos leave him alone...)
Thanks, take care.
John.
--
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From: John.Powell@p5.f134.n109.z1.FIDONET.ORG (John Powell)
Subject: Stuff
Date: 7 Apr 92 07:20:49 GMT
Sheldon, I've lost my Fido UFO Echo link... Did you send me a Netmail a few
months ago? I tried to reply and it got bounced with some message like "no
one with that name at that address..."
Just read Keith's article on Implants in IUR. Did you notice that when this
matter got just big enough to require documentation that the leading
authorities are now claiming that the aliens are using "fleshy implants" that
are not detectable...???
Steve's implant X-ray/photo matches very well with a description in David
Jacobs book.
Thanks, take care.
John.
--
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From: Keith.Basterfield@f12.n1040.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Research
Date: 7 Apr 92 05:20:00 GMT
Hi Sheldon, sorry that I have been quiet on this folder for a while
but I have been attending to other aspects of UFOlogy, other than
abductions. (Yes, abductions are actually only one part of the
subject-there are still reports of disc like objects stopping cars
occurring in places etc). Anyway to your message.
1. Yes, I did receive an invitation to attend the conference at MIT in
June. However, I do not have a spare Aust$2,500 for the air fare I'm
afraid so I wont be there. Should be a good affair.
2. Thanks for the compliment on the IUR implants article. I enjoyed
writing it, though the research took some 6 months. Despite everything
which has been written on the topic-"we ain't got the proof" yet!
3. I'm looking at an article on the "missing fetus" syndrome next.
There are many claims to have come across abduction of females where
they were impregnated and then the fetus removed at 3-4 months. This
syndrome was uncovered by Budd Hopkins with the story of Kathie in
"Intruders", and followed by I think from memory 4 other cases,
described in the same book. From this Budd deduced aliens are here
experimenting with us genetically. However, Jean Mundy who analysed
some 2000 reported abductions from the Omni magazine survey stated
that only some 9 % of female abductees were reporting missing fetus'.
Somehow Budd's small sample of 4-5 cases has been blown up to be a
genetic experimentation hypothesis for 100% of cases. I'll be
exploring this theme in my article.
4. Re FPP. I think many people, including Dave Jacobs are missing some
vital points. No one to my knowledge, with the possible exception of
the latest CUFOS study, has utilised the main stream tests which
detected FPP in 1981, on abductees. What Bob Bartholomew and I
challenged people to do was to take a sample of abductees and run these
standard FPP detecting psychological questionnaires by them and answer
the question, scientifically, are abductees FPP? These tests are
listed in Barber and Wilson's, and others journal articles. Bob and I
listed them in a letter to the Journal of UFO Studies-they are
available to professional psychologists. One cannot dismiss the
possible relevance of FPP to abductees until this testing is done. No
one, (CUFOS?) has done the testing, therefore no one can yet say FPP
is not the answer!
5. Take a small, but highly significant fact in Barber and Wilson's
1981 work. They found that a large percentage of their FPP group had
experienced phantom pregnancies-cessation of menstruation, tender
breasts, morning sickness etc. 2 were so convinced they were pregnant
they presented for abortions. Come the abortion procedure no baby was
found! Exactly what Budd etc have been saying for abductees-the
missing fetus syndrome . Yet these 2 women were FPP with no thought, in
1981, of abductions. Were they actually abductees? Or, as is more
likely, so highly imaginative, they convinced themselves and the
medical profession they were pregnant! I've not found many abduction
researchers who have actually read the original 1981 Barber and Wilson
work-I've got copies if anyone is interested.
In summary, you can't yet say FPP is not relevant, because UFO
researchers have not done the testing to prove it is a false
hypothesis.
--
Keith Basterfield - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: Keith.Basterfield@f12.n1040.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Keith Basterfield)
Subject: Missing fetus syndrome
Date: 7 Apr 92 05:26:00 GMT
Thank you to those who have commented on my recent IUR article on
"implants" and to those who have written for copies of it. As you will
note in a separate message to Sheldon Wernikoff, I am now taking a
look at the missing fetus syndrome-like implants much talked about,
but seemingly with little medical documentation existing. I'd like to
put out a call for any material which people have come across,
particularly documented cases studies. Although i have written some
critical pieces on abductions and continue to push for a proper look
at the FPP hypothesis, I do regard the subject as worthy of
attention-or I wouldn't be spending so much of my time on it.
--
Keith Basterfield - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: Anson.Kennedy@p0.f25.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Anson Kennedy)
Subject: Larry King Show
Date: 11 Apr 92 17:52:00 GMT
> Obviously (or should I say "incredibly"), as Klass stated, he had
> not read _Secret Life_, and was not *at all* familiar with your
> position regarding the psychological condition of your subjects.
> In fact, your convictions are actually in direct opposition to
> Klass's indictments.
> Debate is an effective tool only when both factions are well
> acquainted with the topic at hand. Klass was conspicuosly ill-
> prepared, even with his inaccurate notes.
I suspect that Klass was called in at the last minute to present the skeptics'
POV. This happens frequently. I was called to appear opposite some psychics
on a local discussion show. We were told the topic of discussion only the day
before the show aired (it was live), and even then the moderator changed the
topic.
So I don't think it's too surprising that he had not read the book. You might
ask, "Why did he go on anyway then?" Well, he had two choices: to decline to
go on and then have Larry King say, "We invited arch-skeptic Phil Klass to be
on to rebut Dr. Jacobs, but he refused;" or to go ahead and do the show.
I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. :-)
--- Anson
--
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From: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: More Secret Life Questions
Date: 12 Apr 92 06:08:00 GMT
Hi James,
I saw your questions regarding abductees, and have one answer for you.
Jim Speiser, here in AZ, did some work with a female abductee about a
year ago named Lydia. One of the things Lydia mentioned was that when
she saw yellow beams like search lights in her bedroom, she thought,
"What the...?" and reached over on the bedstand for her glasses but was
gone before she could even get to them.
Here next recollection was that of being outside in the night sky,
gently floating upwards to a dark "bell-shaped" object at some distance
above her. She did not feel the cool night air, even though the
abduction happened in April, and April nights in Arizona can be quite
cool.
Hope that helps,
Linda
--
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From: John.Burke@f9.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG (John Burke)
Subject: Re: _Secret Life_ Reviewed
Date: 12 Apr 92 23:00:00 GMT
Linda Bird writes:
> Just curious: what do you think of Bob Girard's (Artcturus
> Books) book reviews? They're always a kick to read, and he
> can be rough on some people.
Exactly. Although it seems that most reviewers of *anything*
have favorite targets that usually get hit pretty hard. I find
his catalog more fun to read than _Saucer Smear_.
> However, his very own book, REVOLT OF THE FREE, was unreadable
> in my opinion. I have it, and couldn't make any sense out of
> it. (I got more out of his review of his own book than I did
> the book itself!!)
Actually, he reviewed (or should I say PREviewed) the book once
or twice before it was available. After it was available, there
was at least one more review. After I read all of those, I
thought : "OK, I get it! Thanks Bob, you just saved me $12!"
-- John
--
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From: John.Burke@f9.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG (John Burke)
Subject: Larry King Show
Date: 12 Apr 92 23:22:00 GMT
Anson Kennedy writes:
> I suspect that Klass was called in at the last minute to
> present the skeptics' POV. This happens frequently.
> * * *
> So I don't think it's too surprising that he had not read
> the book. You might ask, "Why did he go on anyway then?"
> Well, he had two choices: to decline to go on and then
> have Larry King say, "We invited arch-skeptic Phil Klass to
> be on to rebut Dr. Jacobs, but he refused;" or to go ahead
> and do the show.
He also lives in Washington D.C., where Larry does his show.
-- John
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From: Jim.Speiser@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Re: More Secret Life Questions
Date: 12 Apr 92 14:24:00 GMT
OK, so I couldn't stay away for more than a day or two...at least not yet...
Roger, as Linda has told you, the Lydia case had some interesting sensory
input. Most interesting was the fact that she consciously recalled being in
the "examining room" and not being able to see too clearly. _LATER_, she
recalled hypnotically that she had not been able to reach her glasses before
she was taken from her bedroom; hence the blurry vision.
Jim
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From: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Larry King Show
Date: 12 Apr 92 22:49:00 GMT
Hi Sheldon,
I do agree with you that Jacobs handled the interview very well.
Klass, as usual, wore his little "Klass-smirk" throughout.
Linda
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From: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: Secret Life - Questions, 2/3
Date: 12 Apr 92 23:13:00 GMT
Hi John,
In a recent series of questions you posed to David Jacobs regarding
abductees, I might be able to shed some light on one of your questions,
"While switched off, don't people get cramped or need to go to the
bathroom?"
About a year ago when Jim Speiser was investigating Lydia, she
mentioned that she needed to use the bathroom, and thinking to herself
(so she thought), she thought, "I have to go to pottie..." At this
point, the Alien to who she was talking, looked surprised and
concerned, and hit some kind of lever at the end of the examination
table. The next thing Lydia knew, she was back in her bedroom in bed
with an need to use the bathroom.
Perhaps Jim has something further to add.
Regards,
Linda
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From: Pete.Porro@f414.n154.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: ABDUCTIONS
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:42:04 GMT
To answer one of your questions. A fairly good psychological evaluation can
be done in an hour and a half interview. Trained professionals (and trained
non-professionals) with experience can see trends and patterns which indicate
personality traits. I think you can see in your own everyday life, that you
get impressions of people after talking to them for a few minutes. In an
atmosphere of a private office evaluation, much can be determined in a short
period of time.
As an example you can read a message on this echo, from someone who has
written nothing before, and start to get some idea about their viewpoints and
attitudes by the content, vocabulary and methods of reasoning.
Actually in about 45 minutes of constant verbal exchange, one can get the
basic attributes of another person. As for the deep parts, you are of course
correct. One does not need to know the why to know that A person is living in
a world of dillusion, or denial of reality. We can determine by conversation
if someone has compulsive obsessive traits. A "FPP" will show itself just as
well. Although we can choose what we wear, even clothes are an indication in
many people. Add posture, eye movements, and body language... It all adds up
fast.
--
Pete Porro - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: Pete.Porro@f414.n154.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Pete Porro)
Subject: Re: OVERWEIGHT?
Date: 10 Apr 92 17:54:25 GMT
Your observation makes me wonder what percentage of the population is
overweight according to the standards? Or to look at it in another way,
overweight compared to who? (whom?) I don't know if this is relevant, but
maybe except for a few "perfect" people and the anorexic club, the US
population is mostly overweight? I speak for my 15 lbs. of spare tire and
enjoyment of eating personally. 8*)
Is the observation that abductees and people who see UFO's appear to be
overweight, a matter of fact, because most people are the same? Or to try to
state it more clearly, if 80% of the population is overweight, then we could
expect 80% of the people who observe UFo's to also be the same?
If the body type falls out of the normal distribution, then it might point
to something. Just for thought since I don't know the answer.
As long as I running with the fingers today. I believe there was something
here, that passed me by. But I wonder what percentage of abductee's are
products of abusive enviroments. (physical, verbal or mental are options)
Abuse is not limited to physical when one see's similar bahavior patterns
emerging from all of the above.
--
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From: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: _Secret Life_ Reviewed
Date: 14 Apr 92 04:05:00 GMT
Hi John,
You know what REVOLT OF THE FREE is about?! Please tell me as I
haven't a clue! Does it have something to do with population control,
and how do aliens or UFO's fit in?
Waiting, and thanks,
Linda
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From: John.Burke@f9.n1012.z9.FIDONET.ORG (John Burke)
Subject: Re: _Secret Life_ Reviewed
Date: 15 Apr 92 07:10:00 GMT
Linda Bird writes:
> You know what REVOLT OF THE FREE is about?! Please tell me
> as I haven't a clue! Does it have something to do with
> population control, and how do aliens or UFO's fit in?
I should again point out that my knowledge about this book is
limited to what Bob Girrard has discussed in his catalog . . .
He estimates that 9,999 out of every 10,000 people are
dysfunctional, brain-dead zombies who rely on religions,
governments and space brothers to solve all of their problems.
As a result of this displaced confidence, we are rapidly headed
toward apocalypse, with things like AIDS, TB and starvation
killing off large chunks of the world's population.
His "solution" (not unlike the old "Final Solution") is that the
"free" (those who are not bound up by co-dependant belief systems
such as religion, reliance upon space brothers for salvation,
etc.) should revolt and re-create the human species, using a
handful of carefully-chosen, highly-motivated humans which will
be known as the "Core Humanity". (Sounds a bit like the "Master
Race", doesn't it?) Worse yet, Bob points out that "since no
humans will likely VOLUNTEER their own elimination on behalf of
the `greater good', a revolution will most likely be needed to
accomplish such a program". I hate to speculate on how such a
program would be accomplished, since the only thing that comes to
mind is gas-emitting shower heads. I wonder why?
-- John
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From: David.Jacobs@f21.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (David Jacobs)
Subject: I'm back once again.
Date: 15 Apr 92 06:46:29 GMT
I'm sorry to have not posted recently, but I have been swamped with
work and with media appearances in connection with my book. I just want to
assure my friends and colleagues that I will try to get to most of their
questions soon (although there was a three-pager that I am not sure I will be
able to handle).
Here are a few random points that I picked up on after quickly reviewing
the messages to me. Because psychiatrists and psychologists do not often have
patients presenting with abduction accounts must be considered in light of
various factors. First, most abductees do not know themselves that they have
been the victims of abductions. Rather, they have been the subject of
numerous bizarre and extraordinary events for which the society provides a
menu of explanations. They may have had unwanted and unexpected out of body
experiences. They may have seen a ghost or a deceased relative standing by
their bed. They may have woken up in the middle of the night paralyzed and
seen a monster when they were an adult. They may have had missing time
experiences that they simply chalked up to "road hypnosis" or some such thing.
Needless to say, the therapist is not going to recognize the potential of
these experiences to be anything other than psychological abberations.
Second, many, many abductees have gone to therapists with abduction
accounts consciously remembered. Many of these tell their therapist what has
happened to them. They receive too explanations: The accounts are delusional
and the person must be made to recognize the events in their life that led to
these delusions; and they have been the subject of protracted and cruel sexual
abuse as a child and the abduction accounts are simply screen memories for
their abuse. We have had many abductees come forward with these stories.
Third, we have also heard that many abductees, for various reasons, will
not tell their therapist what has happened to them. Some they feel guilty if
they talk about it, for others it might make them seem to crazy even for the
therapist, and so forth.
Via SPITFIRE Bulletin Board System - Version 3.1
--
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From: David.Jacobs@f21.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (David Jacobs)
Subject: I'm back again (2)
Date: 15 Apr 92 07:15:18 GMT
Sorry, I inadvertently saved the last message while trying to edit it. I
will try to pick up where I left off.
Fourth, a number of therapists have referred abductees to Budd and to me.
They recognize that the abduction material is something that they have never
heard before and that is not internally generated. They are in a minority, to
be sure, but there numbers are growing.
furthermore, we have made significant inroads into the therapeutic community
for help and support. It is not the physicists or the astronomers who have
begun to understand the seriousness of the situations, it is the therapists.
They know that this is something that they have never encountered before and
that it is beyond their expertise to handle.
Fifth, we have a number of therapists, (psychologists, psychiatrists, and
psychiatric social workers) who have come forward with abduction accounts of
their own. I think that the total is about 12-15 now. Thus, I am somewhat
puzzled why Mark Rodeghier would state that he talked to a psychiatrist who had
never had an abductee talking about his abductions--as if this had some sort
of significance for the existence of the abductions themselves.
Re: Overweight people. Although it is possible that the abduction
phenomenon might make people overeat because of stress, etc., it is just as
possible that they might lose weight for the same reason. The people I have
seen run the gamut from fat to skinny and I believe that Budd's population
does as well. I really do not see this as a pattern that we ought to turn
our attention to--there are more important things to consider first.
Re: fantasy prone personalities. I repeat, this is a nonstarter. I
don't want to get into a heavy discourse about this theory. It is based on
the idea that abductions are internally generated. The parameters of FPP are
controversial as is even the existence of it as a separate psychiatric
condition (I think). "Measuring" it obviously is going to present us with a
myriad of difficulties in interpretation and meaning. Given this, Kenneth Ring
found in his Omega study that fantasy prone personalities did not play a role
in the generation of abduction accounts. I believe that CUFOS found that most
abductees that they studies were not fantasy prone (I am going on word of
mouth here). Neither Budd Hopkins nor I have found any evidence whatsoever
for fantasy prone individuals to be generating abduction accounts. As far as
I know, John Mack has found no evidence for abductions being caused by fantasy
prone people, and so on.
I really do think that chasing after the fantasy prone personality
hypothesis is an exercise in futility and wheel spinning. But if people what
to spend their time and energy doing this, then I guess I can't persuade them
otherwise. I would liek to see intelligent people use their talents in more
productive research on the accounts themselves.
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David Jacobs - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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From: Linda.Bird@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Linda Bird)
Subject: Re: _Secret Life_ Reviewed
Date: 15 Apr 92 06:34:00 GMT
Yikes, John!
You put it so well, that even if Girard had never written such a book,
one could argue that the premise could be true, yet frightening! All
one has to do is take a look at some of the brain dead students and
administrators at my school and wonder...
Will be going to a new school with new principal next year, but the
same old kids (and their parents) will be tagging right along.
So now that I'm off-topic...However, I have wondered about these folks
and wonder what they would make of an abduction. The area where I work
is poor, mostly Hispanic, and Catholic. I wonder if there would be
anyone around to "catch on" that an abduction had taken place.
Any comments?
Linda
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Linda Bird - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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