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Abduction Digest Number 41
Abduction Digest, Number 41
Saturday, January 18th 1992
Today's Topics:
Premature Births
Abduction dialogue
Abductions
Abduction Dialogue
Premature Births
Re: Abductions
Abduction dialogue
Abductee list
Salem Therapist
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From: Sheldon.Wernikoff@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Premature Births
Date: 15 Jan 92 23:05:01 GMT
In a message to Sheldon Wernikoff <14-Jan-92 14:08>
Brent Wilcox wrote:
BW> Yes. Instead of cozy maternal imprinting and bonding, the
BW> infant is whisked away by friendly, caring strangers who
BW> isolate it and often perform medical procedures on it (until
BW> recently newborns were operated on without anesthesia).
Hmmm... and conceivably yielding latent images of beings in
uniforms (surgical gowns) with no ears, hair, or mouths (concealed
by caps and masks), and large eyes (reverse magnification through
visual examination lenses).
... And then there are the banks of monitors and diagnostic
equipment so commonplace in the neo-natal unit, and so often
reported by abductees. You may be on to something here, Brent.
To carry this thought one step further, I wonder how many
abductees have undergone any prior hospital surgical procedures,
especially in early childhood. Perhaps some other listeners
possess the pertinent data.
BW> ... I was a "premie" myself... I did have recurrent dreams in
BW> my very early childhood that seem similar to those some report
BW> (in my case, little figures who carried me out of bed and up to
BW> "the attic") -- which I can best trace back to post-birth
BW> experiences.
Did those dreams stay with you consciously from childhood on, or
did something trigger your memory at a later date? Were you able
to correlate being taken out of bed and up to the attic with any
real event in the hospital?
BW> ... as a lifetime fan of science fiction, a follower of
BW> fortean stuff since about the age of 9 or 10, and a writer, I'm
BW> no doubt a "fantasy prone person" too. <g>
To the contrary Brent, being interested in such topics has no real
bearing on whether or not you are a fantasy prone personality.
FPP's are those persons who are predisposed to perceive
extraordinarily graphic and detailed illusions, and find it
difficult, if not impossible, to discern fact from fancy. There
are comprehensive examinations available such as the MMPI
(Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory), which, among other
personality attributes, helps to verify FPP. Additionally, Mark
Rodeghier and the J. Allen Hynek Center For UFO Studies in
Chicago, have developed proprietary tests of their own for
analyzing FPP.
Thanks for initiating discussion of this premature birth issue. It
seems worthy of further investigation.
Take care,
Sheldon
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From: David.Jacobs@f21.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (David Jacobs)
Subject: Abduction dialogue
Date: 15 Jan 92 07:56:05 GMT
I have finally had time to sit down and read the messages for the last several
weeks. I find it all quite interesting, especially the material submitted by
Keith Basterfield. In your discussions of the possible origin of abductions,
however, you have not paid adequate attention to the physicality of the events.
Neither I nor Budd Hopkins have found a single abduction episode in which the
person was physically in place at the alleged time of the abduction. The Purdy
case I assume is uninvestigated and I am not aware of the surrounding
circumstances. Furthermore, we have scores of cases in which two or more
people are abducted at the same time. Also, we have scores of cases in which
one person sees another being abducted but is not abducted himself. The
abducted person confirms the event through investigation. We hve scores of
cases in which the missing abductee during the event is searched for by
friends and relations. Police have been called. Neighbors have been
solicited in search parties and so forth. We have many cases in which
neighbors have told abductees that strange lights were seen over their houses
the night of an abduction. I don't want to pile this on too thick, but the
important thing here is the abduction events that are not psychologically
generated. It seems to me that this is where research should be centered
on--not on the few cases tht might be internally generated. Those might be
very important, but the non-psychological cases are the crux of the matter.
As you probably know, I have come down squarely on the side of the
physicality of abductions. I want to be entirely forthcoming about that. I
certainly do not expect to convince to my position, but it is important to
understand the parameters of the abduction phenomenon so that we can be on the
same playing field. Incidentally, my views are outlined in my book which will
finally see the light of day around the last week of February or the first
week of March. It is called SECRET LIFE: FIRSTHAND ACCOUNTS OF UFO ABDUCTIONS
(subtitle by publisher) and will be published by Simon & Schuster. I expect
it to be a very controversial book.
Jim, I am not sure that I can help with your problem. When an abductee
says that they do not want to go through hypnosis, I respect their judgement.
That decision is the right one for them. Getting the person to write down
the remembrances is a good idea, but I have learned that a person's conscious
recollections are not always trustworthy, so be skeptical about the details of
any consciously recalled episode.
Finally, (it is late at night, I'm tired, and I'm rambling) it is important
to note that to the best of my knowledge, not a single abduction case has ever
been found to have been unequivocably caused by abuse, sexual, physical, or
emotional. Although there has been quite a lot of talk about this and it is
the first theing that therapists think when an abductee presents to him, I
think that there is far less here than meets the eye.
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From: Jim.Speiser@f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Abductions
Date: 15 Jan 92 19:55:00 GMT
> Hi Jim, there is a copy of the UFORA Australian abduction and missing
> time catalogue on its way to you by airmail-should be there in about 10
> days.
Thanks Keith! I look forward to receiving it.
> Re the question of objective/subjective. Eddie Bullard's massive review
> of abduction texts left him with the impression that the subjective
> elements of the abduction experience outwayed the objective elements. I
> think by this he was suggesting a psychological basis rather than a
> physical basis to the phenomenon. In the Dec 91 issue of the UK Journal
> "Fortean Times" Eddie is interviewed by Bob Rickard: page 49:-
> "FT: You have said-in Jerome Clark's UFO Encyclopedia-that you incline
> towards a psychological or psycho-social interpretation of these
> stories, but the physical evidnce in some of these case troubled you.
> Are you any nearer to resolving that dilemma?
And it is a dilemma. I can see where some would try to postulate something "in
between", such as Ring's (?) "imaginal" states.
> A classic Australian abduction is that of Maureen Puddy who whilst in
> the company of VUFORS UFO researchers Paul Norman and Judith Magee
> lasped unto unconsciousness in a car, and then reported being inside a
> round room, entity there etc. She never physically left their presence
> yet an abduction event occurred.
I had heard of this. Was this considered a "classic" abduction in other
respects?
> Question, if we and Eddie accept that some cases are psychological and
> yet these psyhcological caused ones tell exactly the same story as a
> "real" abduction, how do we tell them apart? How can you prove a real
> one was real? THis would be a good question to ask Eddie, which cases
> does he feel are psychological?
I think what is needed is to set parameters for testing of the "reality"
hypothesis, and stick to them, i.e., if a significant number of "real" cases
fail the test, we need to adopt "psychological" as the working hypothesis, and
go from there, perhaps even defining a new malady: Alien Abduction Syndrome, a
curious delusion that has many symptoms of reality. We can test this as well,
perhaps by injecting false reporting elements into the public information flow
and seeing if they show up in future cases. Sneaky? Sure, but it gets the job
done.
Jim
--
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From: Sheldon.Wernikoff@p0.f605.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Sheldon Wernikoff)
Subject: Abduction Dialogue
Date: 17 Jan 92 00:38:03 GMT
In a message to All <15-Jan-92 00:56> David Jacobs wrote:
DJ> you have not paid adequate attention to the physicality of the
DJ> events. Neither I nor Budd Hopkins have found a single
DJ> abduction episode in which the person was physically in place
DJ> at the alleged time of the abduction.
Hi Dave...specifically which aspects of physicality are you
referring to? The reason I ask is that it is possible that some
countenances of the physical MAY be the result of psychological
mechanisms. Rashes and other dermal evidence? Perhaps. Radiation
anomalies? Definitely not.
I also find it very difficult to accept that you apparently believe
NONE of the abductees you and Budd have worked with COULD HAVE
remained in their immediate physical environment. What evidence do
you have that they were ALL corporeally plucked from their
surroundings?
DJ> we have scores of cases in which two or more people are
DJ> abducted at the same time.
Intriguing, but not conclusive... COULD be shared fantasy.
DJ> Also, we have scores of cases in which one person sees another
DJ> being abducted but is not abducted himself. The abducted person
DJ> confirms the event through investigation.
MUCH more interesting than the aforementioned scenario! But... has
there been an opportunity for abductee/witness association prior to
your investigation, or were they sequestered?
DJ> We have scores of cases in which the missing abductee during
DJ> the event is searched for by friends and relations.
What about the HUNDREDS of cases that have NO WITNESSES at all? Do
you and Budd not examine these? There is no way for us to know if
these individuals ever left physically since there were no
observers.
DJ> I don't want to pile this on too thick, but the important thing
DJ> here is the abduction events that are not psychologically
DJ> generated.
I agree Dave, but I'm not certain we're capable of conclusively
differentiating one from the other - at least not yet.
DJ> It seems to me that this is where research should be centered
DJ> on--not on the few cases that might be internally generated.
How can you be certain that only a few cases of abduction are
internally generated? The data some researchers are presenting
would tend to suggest otherwise -in fact - the inverse of the
proportions you state.
DJ> Those might be very important, but the non-psychological cases
DJ> are the crux of the matter.
We are in complete agreement here.
DJ> I certainly do not expect to convince to my position...
But PLEASE TRY Dave... If you can't convince those of us in this
forum who WANT to believe, how shall society ever be convinced of
the reality of the phenomenon?
DJ> I have learned that a person's conscious recollections are not
DJ> always trustworthy, so be skeptical about the details of any
DJ> consciously recalled episode.
I assume you are referring to the possibility of "screen memory"
here, but why should we be any less skeptical of the particulars
uncovered through hypnotic regression?
DJ> ...it is important to note that to the best of my knowledge,
DJ> not a single abduction case has ever been found to have been
DJ> unequivocably caused by abuse, sexual, physical, or emotional.
That may be true Dave, but if it were unequivocally proven that
abductions are caused by aliens, there would be no need for this
discussion.
Great to have you back!
-- Sheldon
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From: Brent.Wilcox@p5.f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Brent Wilcox)
Subject: Premature Births
Date: 16 Jan 92 20:22:30 GMT
In a message to Brent Wilcox <15 Jan 92 16:05> Sheldon Wernikoff wrote:
SW> Hmmm... and conceivably yielding latent images of beings in
SW> uniforms (surgical gowns) with no ears, hair, or mouths (concealed
SW> by caps and masks), and large eyes (reverse magnification through
SW> visual examination lenses).
"Large eyes" could be related to the fact that eyes are the first
thing a newborn is supposed to notice in the human face. I think
this has been commented on by others regarding descriptions of
aliens. That, and the related observation that we (as mammals) have
an instictive reaction to "big eyes" -- from children, puppies,
"Big-Eyed Children" Paintings <g>, Disney cartoons, and maybe ETs...
SW> ... And then there are the banks of monitors and diagnostic
SW> equipment so commonplace in the neo-natal unit, and so often
SW> reported by abductees. You may be on to something here, Brent.
SW> To carry this thought one step further, I wonder how many
SW> abductees have undergone any prior hospital surgical procedures,
SW> especially in early childhood. Perhaps some other listeners
SW> possess the pertinent data.
Even given this latent "programming", what triggers the "abduction
experience"? Stress? Hormonal flux? Are non-human entities using
this latent imagery as a cover for some other psychological
manipulation?
>BW> ... I was a "premie" myself... I did have recurrent dreams in
>BW> my very early childhood that seem similar to those some report
>BW> (in my case, little figures who carried me out of bed and up to
>BW> "the attic") -- which I can best trace back to post-birth
>BW> experiences.
SW> Did those dreams stay with you consciously from childhood on, or
SW> did something trigger your memory at a later date? Were you able
SW> to correlate being taken out of bed and up to the attic with any
SW> real event in the hospital?
I've always remembered those dreams consciously. But the connection
with my incubator experience is purely supposition on my part. I
suspect that experience may have had a considerable effect on me, but
again, this is supposition. I spent a lot of time in the hospital
as a small child, and it would be hard to separate one early
childhood memory of hospitalization from another. My earliest
memories -- if they exist -- would probably involve sound and touch,
since my mother says I didn't open my eyes until several weeks after
I came home from the hospital.
SW> To the contrary Brent, being interested in such topics has no real
SW> bearing on whether or not you are a fantasy prone personality.
SW> FPP's are those persons who are predisposed to perceive
SW> extraordinarily graphic and detailed illusions, and find it
SW> difficult, if not impossible, to discern fact from fancy.
In that case, I don't fit the category...
SW> Thanks for initiating discussion of this premature birth issue. It
SW> seems worthy of further investigation.
Happy I could toss in an interesting two cents...
--Brent
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From: Kay.Mclaughlin@p0.f134.n109.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Kay Mclaughlin)
Subject: Re: Abductions
Date: 15 Jan 92 02:56:00 GMT
On 01-06-92 22:43 Keith Basterfield posted to Jim Speiser:
KB> A classic Australian abduction is that of Maureen Puddy who whilst in
KB> the company of VUFORS UFO researchers Paul Norman and Judith Magee
KB> lasped unto unconsciousness in a car, and then reported being inside a
KB> round room, entity there etc. She never physically left their presence
KB> yet an abduction event occurred.
Interesting thought occured to me while reading this,
If abtuctees are in fact having an OBE, then why/how do they report a
"physical" exam?
Regards,
Kay
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From: Jim.Speiser@p666.f100.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser)
Subject: Abduction dialogue
Date: 16 Jan 92 15:56:03 GMT
In a message to All Users <15 Jan 92 00:56> David Jacobs wrote:
DJ> Jim, I am not sure that I can help with your problem. When
DJ> an abductee says that they do not want to go through hypnosis, I
DJ> respect their judgement. That decision is the right one for
DJ> them. Getting the person to write down the remembrances is a
DJ> good idea, but Ihave learned that a person's conscious
DJ> recollections are not always trustworthy, so be skeptical about
DJ> the details of any consciously recalled episode.
The problem, of course, is that I hear from every other quarter that
hypnotically-recalled memories are not to be trusted either. What's a mother
to do?
DJ> Finally, (it is late at night, I'm tired, and I'm rambling)
DJ> it is important to note that to the best of my knowledge, not a
DJ> single abduction case has ever been found to have been
DJ> unequivocably caused by abuse, sexual, physical, or emotional.
How would one go about proving such a thing "unequivocably"?
Good to see you back.
Jim
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From: David.Jacobs@f21.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (David Jacobs)
Subject: Abductee list
Date: 18 Jan 92 07:21:52 GMT
Hello Keith. I would like to thank you for the listing of the possible
abduction cases that you have been working on. These are exactly the type of
raw reports that Budd Hopkins and I have been delving into. I was unaware
that you were so involved in actual investigation of these cases. Do you do
your own hypnosis or do you have a competent hypnotist with whom you work? In
evaluating the quality of these consciously remembered events, one must be
very careful not to take everything at face value--oftentimes consciously
remembered events are not as accurate as those recalled in a more controlled
and systematic recall environment. Also, one must be quite cautious about
disregarding cases as being internally generated because the consciously
remembered events do not fit with what is known about abductions (at least on
the surface) or because the person relating the events might have had an
unhappy childhood. In other words, be careful not to throw the baby out with
the bath water. I am hoping that when my book comes out it will help clear
up a lot of misconceptions about abductions and clarify what this phenomenon
is all about--knowing full well, of course, that I will probably be wrong
about most everything!
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From: David.Jacobs@f21.n1010.z9.FIDONET.ORG (David Jacobs)
Subject: Salem Therapist
Date: 18 Jan 92 07:32:34 GMT
I am not sure that I can help getting your therapist involved with abduction
research. If she were to get on a local TV show and say that she has an
interest in researching the subject (a newspaper story would also be effective)
she might be able to receive some clients that way. I have been doing a lot
of consulting with therapists around the country on the proper ways to do
hypnosis with abductees also how to proceed with therapy for them. The
subject is so unprecedented that the better therapists will take all the help
they can get. The weaker therapists think that they either know it all
already or can proceed with standard therapy based on their own nonabductee
experience. I have found that the weaker therapists can actually cause harm
when they thrash about not knowing what to do or say. Therefore, if the Salem
therapist wants to talk with me please tell her to give me a call. (Of course
I do not charge for any of my abduction work or consultations.)
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