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NL-KR Digest Volume 03 No. 36
NL-KR Digest (10/20/87 00:26:05) Volume 3 Number 36
Today's Topics:
Re: The definite article
Re: Indescribably Delicious (author: Berke)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 87 05:07 EDT
From: Claus Tondering <ct@dde.uucp>
Subject: Re: The definite article
In article <2063@kitty.UUCP>, larry@kitty.UUCP (Larry Lippman) writes:
> Something I recently read in a periodical caused me to give some
> thought to the requirement for definite and indefinite articles. It caused
> me to pose my own question: Is there any real need for the definite and
> indefinite article in English?
> After some reflection, I came to a tentative answer: NO.
The New Testament gives a good example of the need for a definite
article. In John's Gospel (I don't remember the exact chapter and
verse) Jesus says: "I am the way, the truth, and the life." By this
he meant the only way, the only truth, so that there is no other way
to God except through Jesus.
Now, in a Russian translation of the Bible the verse is presented without
the definite article, because Russian has none. In Russian the verse
becomes: "I am way, truth, and life", which may either mean the same thing
as the English translation, or it may mean "I am a way, a truth, and a life",
which does not exclude the existence of other ways to God.
So, you see, the definite article has quite significant theological con-
sequences here. Fortunately, both Greek and Aramaic (Jesus' own language)
had a definite article!
--
Claus Tondering
Dansk Data Elektronik A/S, Herlev, Denmark
E-mail: ct@dde.uucp or ...!uunet!mcvax!diku!dde!ct
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 87 10:01 EDT
From: Joe Chapman <joe@haddock.ISC.COM>
Subject: Re: The definite article
I'm surprised no one has mentioned ancient Greek in this discussion.
Originally the Greek article (ho, e, to) was a demonstrative; it's
used as such in Homer. Sometime in the 5th century it began to be
used as a definite article. [For a grand tour of all of this, look up
"ho" in Liddell-Scott. It takes up *pages*. Absolute chloroform.]
Incidentally, there's an argument that the development of the definite
article and the abstractions it makes expressible (especially with
infinitives: einai=to be; to einai=being) helped to begin the
development of philosophy in Greece. This usage is very common in
Parmenides and Plato, for example.
I have heard the assertion that Greek was the first Indo-European
language to develop the indefinite article, and that therefore it was
far ahead of other IE languages in its ability to express philo-
sophical concepts; I can't cite a reference for the first notion, nor
do I know enough Sanskrit to rule on the second, so take it as you will.
Joe Chapman
harvard!ima!joe
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 87 00:21 EDT
From: Larry Lippman <larry@kitty.UUCP>
Subject: Re: The definite article
In article <1987Oct6.215107.14061@sq.uucp>, msb@sq.uucp (Mark Brader) writes:
> For instance, when I used to travel regularly by train between Kitchener
> and Toronto, I would often overhear railway people referring to train 665
> as "that #665", with no special implication. Similarly, it's common for
> sports fans to say [usually to non-fans like me :-)], "How about those
> Blue Jays?" [Well, it WAS common until this week, anyway... :-)]
>
> This suggests that we may eventually lose the distinction between "that"
> and "the" (wild conjecture: the forms will eventually exist side by side
> varying according to the initial sound of the following word!), and have to
> evolve a new word for "that".
Okay, now I'm going to pick on you Canadians. :-)
I have various Canadian friends, and I seem to notice they often
use phrases which have no definite or indefinite article. Like, "This
morning Metro [referring to Toronto] traffic was atrocious."
Since we live less than 50 air miles from Hamilton or Toronto,
my wife often watches Canadian television. On occasion, I will watch
Canadian news just to observe the Canadian viewpoints of U. S. events.
I am struck by phrases which are devoid of articles, a common example of
which is: "Following his accident, Mr. Jones is in hospital resting
comfortably." "in hospital" - obviously, no article.
Is it my imagination, or is the definite article disappearing in
Canada at a greater rate than in the U.S.? If so, why?
<> Larry Lippman @ Recognition Research Corp., Clarence, New York
<> UUCP: {allegra|ames|boulder|decvax|rutgers|watmath}!sunybcs!kitty!larry
<> VOICE: 716/688-1231 {hplabs|ihnp4|mtune|seismo|utzoo}!/
<> FAX: 716/741-9635 {G1,G2,G3 modes} "Have you hugged your cat today?"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 87 03:04 EDT
From: wales@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: The definite article
In article <2101@kitty.UUCP> larry@kitty.UUCP (Larry Lippman) writes:
> I have various Canadian friends, and I seem to notice they often
>use phrases which have no definite or indefinite article. Like, "This
>morning Metro [referring to Toronto] traffic was atrocious."
> Since we live less than 50 air miles from Hamilton or Toronto,
>my wife often watches Canadian television. On occasion, I will watch
>Canadian news just to observe the Canadian viewpoints of U. S. events.
>I am struck by phrases which are devoid of articles, a common example
>of which is: "Following his accident, Mr. Jones is in hospital resting
>comfortably." "in hospital" - obviously, no article.
> Is it my imagination, or is the definite article disappearing in
>Canada at a greater rate than in the U.S.? If so, why?
No, I think there are other explanations for what you are observing.
Regarding your first example, I think this is simply an instance of
"Metro traffic" being thought of as an abstract, general entity. I,
out here in Los Angeles, could say "This morning, traffic on the San
Diego Freeway was bumper-to-bumper" -- without having to say "*the*
traffic" -- and it would sound perfectly all right.
As for the second example, there are a handful of fixed expressions of
this type (in all forms of English) where the definite article is not
customarily used. For example: "in school"; "in church"; "in bed".
"In hospital" is perfectly idiomatic British English -- and this partic-
ular Briticism is still the norm in Canada as well (though not in the
States, where we can only say "in *the* hospital").
As far as I can tell (and, although I am an American, I have developed
a fairly high level of familiarity with Canadian English), there is no
more of a general tendency in Canada for a wholesale disappearance of
the definite article than there is in the US.
-- Rich Wales // UCLA Computer Science Department // +1 213-825-5683
3531 Boelter Hall // Los Angeles, California 90024-1596 // USA
wales@CS.UCLA.EDU ...!(ucbvax,rutgers)!ucla-cs!wales
"Sir, there is a multilegged creature crawling on your shoulder."
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 87 12:14 EDT
From: Creative Business Decisions <Q2816@pucc.Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Re: The definite article
In article <2101@kitty.UUCP>, larry@kitty.UUCP (Larry Lippman) writes:
> Okay, now I'm going to pick on you Canadians. :-)
> I have various Canadian friends, and I seem to notice they often
>use phrases which have no definite or indefinite article. Like, "This
>morning Metro [referring to Toronto] traffic was atrocious."
"Freeway traffic was atrocious this morning."
"Rush hour traffic was ... "
"New Jersey traffic ... "
I don't see anything there that isn't idiomatically American.
> Since we live less than 50 air miles from Hamilton or Toronto,
>my wife often watches Canadian television. On occasion, I will watch
>Canadian news just to observe the Canadian viewpoints of U. S. events.
>I am struck by phrases which are devoid of articles, a common example of
>which is: "Following his accident, Mr. Jones is in hospital resting
>comfortably." "in hospital" - obviously, no article.
"In hospital" has been standard British usage for ages. We say,
"Hospitalized" or "in the hospital" instead. On the other hand,
we say "in jail," just as they do. (Well, ok, they say, "in gaol.")
> Is it my imagination, or is the definite article disappearing in
>Canada at a greater rate than in the U.S.? If so, why?
I don't think these changes are anthing new. Nor do I think there's
much evolution of them.
Roger Lustig (Q2816@PUCC)
BRING BASEBALL BACK TO WASHINGTON!
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 87 14:52 EDT
From: Samuel B. Bassett <samlb@well.UUCP>
Subject: Re: The definite article
In article <2101@kitty.UUCP> larry@kitty.UUCP (Larry Lippman) writes:
> . . . "in hospital" - obviously, no article.
> Is it my imagination, or is the definite article disappearing in
>Canada at a greater rate than in the U.S.? If so, why?
"in hospital" is a Britishism -- so it's not necessarily the Canadians'
fault, tho' I _have_ heard a lot of Canadian speech that lacks the definite
article, too . . .
Canadian comments?
--
Sam'l Bassett -- Semantic Engineering for fun & profit.
34 Oakland Ave., San Anselmo CA 94960; DDD: (415) 454-7282
UUCP: {hplabs,ptsfa,lll-crg}!well!samlb; Internet: samlb@well.uucp
Compuserve: 71735,1776; WU Easylink ESL 6284-3034; MCI SBassett
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 87 19:53 EDT
From: Max Hauser <max@eros.uucp>
Subject: Re: The definite article
In article <4188@well.UUCP> samlb@well.UUCP (Samuel B. Bassett) writes:
>
> "in hospital" is a Britishism -- so it's not necessarily the Canadians'
>fault, tho' I _have_ heard a lot of Canadian speech that lacks the definite
>article, too . . .
But this is not peculiar to Canada; the New England states of the US are
also fond of it. When I was in Boston 1979-81 I heard a lot of
"She was taken to hospital"
"We are going to town meeting"
This was in small towns inland of Boston, which always had a lot of
town meetings. They were in vogue.
I will not venture to repeat what I heard further north in New England
simply because it's not the same without regional accent, but it was
similar.
While I'm on the subject, I remember that everything around Boston
seems to be called Somebody Memorial Something, as I remarked in
correspondence back home to the provinces at the time. For example,
the Boston Pops performed outdoor concerts in a band shell called the
Hatch Memorial Shell. As Arthur Fiedler had recently died, they
offered a Fiedler Memorial Concert. A local college radio station
in the Walker Memorial Building petitioned for call letters alluding
to their location. Et sic de similibus.
Max Hauser / max@eros.berkeley.edu / ...{!decvax}!ucbvax!eros!max
State University at the Democratic Republic of Berzerkeley
"Warning: You are entering a nuclear-free zone. Possession or
discharge of nuclear weapons within city limits may be subject
to police citation."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 87 22:52 EDT
From: Mark Brader <msb@sq.uucp>
Subject: Re: The definite article
I think Rich Wales is right in his analysis of the phrases Larry Lippman
quoted. [Now if someone could explain why Americans need a "the" in the
middle of "in hospital", but not in the middle of "in bed"... :-)]
As further evidence for the non-disappearance of "the" in Canada, I point
out that I bank at The Royal Bank of Canada, whereas an American might bank
at Bank of America with no "the". Even where the name itself does not
include a "the", I find it idiomatic to say that I do not bank, though I
once did, at the Bank of Montreal. (The ads for the latter never include
the article, so there is evidently some variation of usage here. But Rich
tells me that there is no such variation in U.S. usage.)
Mark Brader "Not looking like Pascal is not a language deficiency!"
utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com -- Doug Gwyn
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 87 02:58 EDT
From: berke@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Re: Indescribably Delicious (author: Berke)
(First, appologies to those who requested the Naming and Knowledge
paper. There were more requests than I expected and many were from
Europe and Asia. I was away at the Artificial Life conference for
a week, and will send copies as soon as I scrounge up the postage!
Thank you for your replies and requests, Pete.)
Now, in reply to:
steves@cs.qmc.ac.uk (Stephen Sommerville)
in article 1437 of Newsgroup: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Indescribably Delicious (Berke)
Date: 14 Sep 87 15:57:44 GMT
Please change the name in the (author) part of the subject line if
you follow-up to my postings. Sometimes before I "kill" subjects,
I like to know if certain people have responded, and so would prefer
to see author's names in the subject line. My summarizer '=' command
lists just the subject of articles, not the authors, so I put my
name in the subject line, hoping others will.
I have no solutions to offer to the purported conundrum
of how to interpret phrases like "indescribably A", since I
suspect such phrases only appear puzzling to one with an overly
simple notion of 'meaning'
It is true that in your article you do not offer any solutions. Perhaps
you could explain a better notion of 'meaning' than the overly simple one
you attribute to me. You have not been presented with my notion of
'meaning', but I would appreciate any substantive solution to any
problem with any simple theory of meaning.
'Indescribably delicious' is not a conundrum. It is a name for a concept
that cannot be expressed in words.
Fregean 'concepts' are certainly not what Church (in "Logic of
Sense and Denotation" or "The Need for Abstract Entities in Semantics")
meant by "sense". Frege also has the notion of "Sense (Sinn)" in
"Ueber Sinn und Bedeuting", as
contrasted with the term "Begriff (concept)".
You are completely wrong, but the confusion is partly my fault. Church
translates the German 'Begriff' as 'propositional function'. He uses the
word 'concept' to refer to the entities that can serve as senses of names.
If you don't believe me, ask him.
In ordinary circumstances, the sense of a name is a concept of an object
that the name names. Church has tried to remain as true to both Frege
and Russell's terminologies, as many ideas in both are parallel. Church
probably translates 'Begriffe' as 'propositional functions' because Frege's
Begriffe resemble Russell's propositional functions.
I believe that 'Begriff' literally translates to 'concept', but this is
only one of the many misfortunes plaguing translations of Frege.
> required by the assumption that names name things <
is precisely to repeat the mistake agai
