The Prisoner #002: Who are the No.2's?
Date: Monday, 19 August 1985 19:23 mst
From: allegra!sjuvax!iannucci at SEISMO.CSS.GOV (iannucci)
To: Lippard at MIT-MULTICS
The Prisoner #002 08/17/85 Moderator: Dave Iannucci (iannucci@sjuvax.UUCP)
Topic: Who are the No.2's?
With regard to Carl Hommel's question #4, as to how Rover got his name:
I believe it may be #6 who first called him that. In the episode "The Schzoid Man", when the false #6 has been killed, our hero returns to his cottage, calls number #2 and says something like "Rover got him!" The supervisor is immediately contacted and told to de-activate Rover. (At least this is how I remember it occurring.)
I think it is also rather ironic that Rover is one of the only ones in the village who does not have a number, but a name. Interesting that the mechanical devices (recall the title character of "The General") have names, but people have numbers.
Can anyone recall anyone (or anything) else in the series called by a name? The Supervisor is referred to in the credits, though I don't know if anyone in the series actually called him that.
Be seeing you,
Lyle E. Wilkinson
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Re: the naming of Rover
When Channel 54 broadcast the Prisoner, the local video critic (Scott Appel) gave a short talk about the show before each episode. He said that originally they intended to use a mechanical dog of some kind for the "guard" (shades of K9!) but the thing couldn't run well over the terrain they were shooting. So in desperation McGoohan suggested a giant white bag which happened to be lying around ... and the rest is Rover!
Matt Bishop
mab@riacs.arpa, ...!ihnp4!ames!riacs!mab, ...!decvax!decwrl!riacs!mab
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A newsletter contribution:
Another place where Rover is referred to by name is in Tom Disch's Prisoner book. He's actually one of several guard spheres, but the only one with a name that I recall. He's fawn colored in the book. I think the three books might be an interresting topic of discussion at some point (like now). It's interesting to note the differences between Disch's recounting of the Schizoid Man episode and the actual televised version. It's highly ironic when he mentions how carfully the films are made, as if for a television show. [L. Roberts]
(ed. note -- I think the books vs. the tv show might be an interesting topic, but I don't think that enough people have read the books to make this realistic. Am I right? -- DJI)
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I just finished watching "Do Not Forsake Me O My Darling." on TV. It is the thirteenth episode on your list, but the previous week they showed "Dance of the Dead" and I think all those preceding it in the same order.
I noticed that in this one he is called "Carl." I thought that #6 is supposed to be John Drake of "Secret Agent", and that the code he gives in this episode is supposed to be that of John Drake. (all hearsay, I never saw "Secret Agent")
As to the "Who are the No.2's" thing, I was surprised that no one mentioned that Leo McKern is not only in the final two shows, but also earlier on, I think in "The Chimes of Big Ben." I don't have much use for the view that this is all a fantasy of #6's, why should I care about a guy like that? Likewise for a similar one (heard nth person, attributed to a book with summaries of TV shows) which is that #6 is in charge and did it all to prove something. But I can see how people could get these ideas from the confrontation with the hooded guy with the #1 insignia in the last show. (I wish I had some idea what was going on there) Inserting a comma into "You are number six" doesn't sound fair, it's not read that way!
Dave Tallman thinks that the behavior of the characters in "Living in Harmony" demonstrates that #6 is imagining it all. I don't think so. I think I remember one of the actors reminding the other not to get too involved in the script, and in the end the plan falls apart for this reason, sounds to me like real people having difficulty keeping track of reality.
I think the question of where the #2's come from was intended to have no answer. In one show #2 gives #6 a speech about how one day the two sides will look at each other and see they have become the same. In this light it doesn't matter if the Village is a) us, b) them, c) all of the above, or d) none of the above.
Has anyone seen the video cassettes of the show? I've seen them in Publisher's Clearing House catalogs for something like $40 an episode (hardly fair when the Star Trek *movies* are only $20) but I don't own a VCR or feel like paying $980 for the whole set of 17, but a friend says they can be rented for $2.50 a day.
Does anyone know if it is possible to visit the Hotel Portmerion? Can one just walk around the grounds, or must one make reservations to stay there? It might be that they are tired of Prisoner fanatics by now and try to discourage them. Is it possible to get from some major city to the hotel and back in a day? I wouldn't make a pilgrimage, but it's not unlikely that I might be passing thru London on the way to somewhere else.
[W. Burstein]
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The Prisoner #001 07/15/85 Topic: Who are the No.2's?What happens to a Number 2 when he is no longer a Number 2? I don't know. At least one was sent home. "Give my regards to the homeland.", says Number 2 to her departing predecessor in "Free for All".
Actually, it isn't at all clear that the "Number 2" in the election was really Number 2 at all. My impression was that the woman was No. 2 the whole time, and that the other so-called No. 2 was simply a decoy.
I caught the first episode on Channel 11 New Hampshire last Saturday, and had some interesting musings. This is the first time I have seen it since Lastcon 1, in December 1981.3. Alana (my wife) wondered how many characters (other than #2 in the last episode) were in more than one show? She seems to recall the short bald scientist showing up later on.
Another one that comes to mind is the Number 2 in "Schizoid Man" and "The General". And of course The General himself (itself?), if you count that. (Remember, in "Schizoid Man" No. 2 makes some remark about it all being the General's idea, and No. 6 -- masqerading as No. 12 -- makes a comment about reporting to the General, which is what makes No. 2 suspicious.)
Also, I'm not sure about this, but it seems to me that the sadistic doctor/scientist in "Dance of the Dead" may have become the sadistic No. 2 in "Hammer into Anvil". I'll know in about a month when the latter is shown again in Boston.
4. How did "Rover" (the white beach ball) get his name? I read in in some fanfiction, and people at Lastcon named him so, but is he called that in the shows?
In "Schizoid Man", after the real No. 12 has been killed, No. 6 assumes his identity and tells No. 2 that No. 6 has been killed. When No. 2 asks how, he replies "Rover got him."
5. The unanswerable question - is the Village run by the Good Guys or the Bad Guys?
That would be telling.
Matt Landau {cca, datacube, ihnp4, inmet, mit-eddie, wjh12}...
Mirror Systems, Inc. ...mirror!prism!matt
Cambridge, MA (617) 661-0777
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4. How did "Rover" (the white beach ball) get his name? I read in in some fanfiction, and people at Lastcon named him so, but is he called that in the shows?
5. The unanswerable question - is the Village run by the Good Guys or the Bad Guys?
Re: question No.4 above: I heard the the supervisor (the short bald guy who runs the surveillance center) call him Rover in one episode (I couldn't possibly tell you which one). That is the only time in the series that I can remember Rover's name being mentioned. [Dave Iannucci]
Re: 4 above, Rover is first named in Schizoid Man toward the end when they temporarily disconnect it after it has killed #12.
Re 5: quote from Leo McKern (#2 in Chimes): "I am an optimist. That is why it doesn't matter which side runs the village...when both sides realize they are looking into a mirror...a perfect blueprint for world order."
Lenore, c/o Jonathan Young (decvax!yale!young@UUCP)
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First, before asking what happens to old #2's, it should be noted that #2 is an office, not a person the way #6 is a person. The function of the office of #2 is to be the human link between #1 and #6 --an old #2 remains an agent for the side that runs the village, but he/she resumes a previous job in the "real world" or whatever, according to orders from Higher Authority. We know of at least one person who serves as #2 on two seperate occasions (Leo McKern); we know of at least one attempt to dispose of a #2 (It's Your Funeral).
I am intrigued by the idea that there might be different levels of #2s. Certainly the #2's seem at different levels of competence, sophistication, and (in?)security. At one end of the spectrum there are the #2's such as Leo McKern and the #2 in Schizoid Man, at the other end, the weaker vessels plagued by the Dread Red Phone such as the #2 in A, B, and C or the #2 in Hammer Into Anvil. I seem to recall a link between the competence of a #2, and whether he or she has in possession the Umbrella of Office. Only the competent #2's seem to have the umbrellas, if I am remembering correctly and this is followed consistently throughout the series, and this would lend credence to the theory that there are indeed 'higher' and 'lower' #2's.
I would like to open up discussion on the question of Time in the Prisoner. >From the first episodes time, watches and clocks seem to play strangely important roles. In The Arrival, it is a watch that allows the Prisoner to avoid Rover and enter the helicopter; in Chimes of Big Ben, it is the lack of discrepancy between British and Village time that clues in the Prisoner to the fact that he is not in London, and so on. Anyone have anymore good examples of Time being important in other episodes? ("Tick Tick" in Free for All comes immediately to mind...) Any theories relating time to the last episode and WHAT IT ALL MEANS?
For those of you who have access and haven't yet heard the good news--Prisoner is being rebroadcast on Channel 31, WNYC in New York Sunday nights at nine. Am I correct in assuming that most people on this net have already seen the entire series or should we be making an effort not to give things away, especially about the last two episodes?
BCnU
Lenore, c/o Jonathan Young (...decvax!yale!young@UUCP)
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Please excuse the lack of flow in my reply. I just wanted to address each issue felt important seperatly...
- I believe the village is a testing grounds for strong individuals and only a prison for weak individuals.
- To me it appears that retirement was a higher qualification to being shot than failure. Thus I agree with Carl H. and Dave T.
- I don't think as much time was spent on any ex-agents other than #6, since he was the strongest (most important), sometimes only (?) individual.
- I just can't believe there was a circuit of villages. It just doesn't seem to fit...
- "Give my regards to the homeland" form "Free for All" is interesting! I'm still very puzzled over the meaning of this one.
- I agree the idea of letting each #2 live for future usefullness, but where do they go!? They can't go back to the "real world". They must become part of the support management (middle men) for the village, don't you think?
- I don't entertain the fantasy theory. I'll go out on a limb here... I'm more likely to believe the village was run by the "Good Guys", meaing Great Britain.
- I think the dual level #2's may fit, along with the retirement scam.
- Do the doors really only open for #6!?
- Dave I. is right about Rover! I also know that both #2 and #6 called the ball "Rover" in "The Schizoid Man" (5th) episode. This was after it killed #12 who was pretending to be #6 to cause an identity crisis.
That's all I have for now. I'm looking forward to hearing from the rest of you. "Be seeing you!". pegasus!juliet!tek
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More speculations about the hierarchy of the Village. Here is a possible status list from high to low.
- Them - Levels of hierarchy behind the scenes.
- Number 1? - Probably not real.
- Top agents - Like #86 in "A Change of Mind", some seem to outrank #2.
- Higher-level #2 - Like the man in "It's Your Funeral".
- Acting #2 - The most visible authority figure, frequently replaced.
- The Butler - Always around #2.
- Scientists and doctors - Actually brainwashers.
- The Supervisor - Manages the monitors and Rover.
- Rover - Robot to subdue or destroy escapees.
- Monitoring technicians - Watching the Village and each other.
- Watchers - Planted to get the trust of prisoners.
- Warders - Thugs in striped shirts.
- The Town Hall and Village Council - Puppet village government.
- Sheep - Former prisoners subdued to obedience.
- Prisoners - The ones the Village is for.
- Jammers - Prisoners that the authorities won't listen to.
- Unmutuals - Ostracized for nonconformity.
Does anyone have additions or corrections to this list? I place The Butler high on the list because he may be more than he appears to be - the real #1?
"Number Two is unmutual!"
C. David Tallman - dspo!tallman@LANL.GOV or ihnp4!lanl!dspo!tallman
Los Alamos National Laboratory - E-10/Data Systems
Los Alamos, New Mexico - (505) 667-8495
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In reply to Lyle Wilkinson's question about people referred to by names instead of numbers, I submit that in the episode "Dance of the Dead" (I'm pretty sure) we meet an old colleague of No.6's named Roland Walter Dutton. I think he's the most intriguing example of such, because he is actually a human being.
In reply to Warren Burstein's question about video tapes, here is the name of a large bookstore in NYC who sell the first 9 episodes on video tape for 39.95 apiece.
Barnes & Noble Bookstores
126 Fifth Ave.
New York, NY 10011
Well, folks, I am happy to say that we are now 54 strong. I think we're well on our way to having an interesting discussion group. However, I feel, that this topic is going to get stale real fast, so may I suggest that we begin submitting ideas on almost anything you like, especially the final show and its allegories, etc. I have received some really good ideas for other topics, but will save those for the next issue, which I can get out much more quickly if people would send me more mail!
I have recently subscribed to a few other mailing lists, and am getting some ideas, for example, that we don't have to limit ourselves to one topic at a time. I'm beginning to find that it is more difficult than ever to remember what went on in some of these shows, and esp. to remember the little interesting tidbits. But we should get by with the help of those who are watcing the series currently.
BCing U and keep the submissions coming!
Dave Iannucci @ St. Joseph's University, Philadelphia, Pa.
USmail: 224 Green Briar Lane Havertown, Pa. 19083
UUCP: {{ihnp4 | ucbvax}!allegra | {psuvax1}!burdvax | astrovax}!sjuvax!iannucci
p.s. BTW, I notice that some mailing list moderators always send out the names of new members. I won't do that, but if anyone would like to see a copy of the subscription list I would be happy to send it out.
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\ / \___/Just for kicks a while ago, I tried to make a picture of the Penny-Farthing bike. As you can see, I was not too successful. If anyone else can make a better one, let's see it!
END OF The Prisoner #002 8/17/85
