Interview with Stephen Echard Roshi "Zen & Pop Culture"
HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO GO NOWHERE?
ZEN IN AMERICAN POP CULTURE -- a perspective from Stephen Echard Musgrave Roshi, Zen Master with the Zen Institute of San Diego.
Echard Musgrave Roshi is a Zen Master in the Soto tradition of Japan, the largest Zen tradition in the world. He received transmission and the title Roshi in 1988 from Reverend Doctor Soyu Matsuoka, bishop of the Soto tradition, one of Japan's most respected Zen masters and patriarch of American Zen. Roshi Echard has been a Zen student for twenty-eight years and has studied under masters of the Rinzai, Korean, Vietnamese and Chinese traditions. In the following interview, Roshi Echard clarifies some of the issues surrounding the stereotypes of Zen in American pop culture. This interview was conducted by Linnea Lamar.
Lamar: When I hear the words "emptiness" or "nothingness," I get the impression that Zen is antithetical to a "belief in something" that characterizes much religious thought. Even within the Zen tradition, to say that one believes in emptiness seems like a contradiction in logic.
Echard: In Zen, emptiness is a translation of the Sanskrit term "shunyata" or "voidness," but that does not imply vacuity. When we talk about "emptiness" or "nothingness" in Zen, that term really comes from the fact that the essence of Zen is Buddhism, which is grounded in the doctrine of interdependent origination. That is to say that all phenomenon exists in conjunction with all other phenomenon. Consequently, when you try to look at something's ontological structure, that is when you try to define it as an absolute thing in and of itself, it is "empty" in that what you're seeing is merely the result of your own sensual limitations or epistemological processes. It's not a matter of the thing's real being; it's a matter of the way you perceive it. So, in that respect, we use the term "emptiness" because nothing has a real validity solely in and of itself, but it is entirely relational.
That a thing's reality is relational, however, does not mean that things are not significant in and of themselves. Things are expressions of reality; they are the manifestations of reality as "thing," just as trees are the expression of the forest. The forest in turn is not manifested where there are no trees. Trouble lies in an absolute identification with either the forest or its expression as trees.
Lamar: It seems as though in American pop culture, this emptiness is often misconstrued as the absence of clear-cut moral principles associated with other religions.
Echard: The misconception concerning morality comes when you take this idea of emptiness and therefore decide, "Since nothing has an individual or separate being, all things must therefore have no value." People with this sort of attitude mistakenly try to circumvent real moral principles.
Lamar: Do you attribute this mistake to a superficial understanding of Zen, one that intrigues the intellect, but does not bring the teachings into actual practice?
Echard: First of all, you notice that Western popularizers of Zen hardly ever mention "Buddhism" in the same breath with "Zen." That's because in the popular culture there's the notion that you can somehow extrapolate the essence of Zen from Zen Buddhism and have something that's meaningful.
In a way, it's sort of a homeopathic understanding of spiritual practice: Such people think that you can extract the essence out of Zen Buddhism, dilute it to infinitesimal levels, and still possess the same thing. I'm not saying that doesn't work in regards to homeopathic medicine, but it doesn't work in regards to spiritual practice.
Lamar: Would you say that an intellectual understanding, such as that gained from reading scholarly books on the subject, has any value for people who sincerely wish to understand Zen?
Echard: Of course, an intellectual understanding is necessary. After all, the word "Zen" means meditation and is the eighth path of the Eightfold Path which includes right views, right action, right effort, right speech, and so on. But unless you are involved in actively integrating all of these factors together into your spiritual life, intellectual understanding simply will not suffice to bring about any meaningful self-transformation, which of course is the intent of Zen Buddhism. Reading scholarly books on the subject without making an attempt to fully integrate your practice into the entirety of your life is like the alcoholic who goes to an A.A. meeting in the morning and a cocktail lounge in the afternoon!
Lamar: But still, even if we hope to apply the precepts of Buddhism in any real way, it is necessary to remove our sense of self and all accompanying delusions. Therefore, as this process unfolds, are we losing something or gaining it?
Echard: Yes, basically most people thing of spiritual growth as gaining wisdom or adding something. But actually it's the other way around: It's getting rid of ignorance. In Buddhism there is the inherent belief that wisdom or truth is the constituent part of our nature and that ignorance is clouding it over. And so what we are trying to do is to get rid of ignorant views. As ignorant views disappear and we live a life that is more authentic and real, then we become wise and suffering seems to disappear. So it's not an additive process; it's a subtractive process.
Lamar: What role does meditation play in this process?
Echard: Meditation or "zazen," which we call sitting meditation, involves calming the mind, not by forceful effort but by simply seeing the kinds of thoughts and emotions which we possess and which possess us in a very real sense due to our identification with them. Therefore, when thoughts and emotions arise from the stream of consciousness, we will need to disassociate from them, without repressing. This same practice then carries over into our daily lives, and we begin to see the thoughts for just what they are -- usually something learned or experienced in the past. These have become identified with certain emotions and eventually with ourselves.
Lamar: It seems that many non-Buddhist Zen pop-culture organizations advocate the practice of meditation, also. What is the difference between these forms of meditation and that of zazen?
Echard: Most meditations are directed towards enhancing one's life in some way, and there's nothing wrong with that. The premise of most of these pop meditations, however, is that one can develop some kind of psychological attitude that defends oneself against reality. In Zen Buddhism, meditation is not directed towards defending oneself against the stresses of reality but rather towards confronting reality as it is and becoming one with it. This requires a world view and a way of being in the world that reinforces it.
In this way, the practice of meditation is contained within a meaningful context. The context of many New Age groups stays in flux. Or sometimes a disgruntled Zen student, due to a failure to resolve a dysfunctional relationship with their teacher, will want to trash the tradition with the teacher, thus taking the meditation out of context or inventing his or her own context. This is inviting a dangerous alchemy. Practicing Zen meditation without the context of the Eightfold Path would be like carrying water in a leaky bucket.
Lamar: "Enlightenment" seems to be a big word in Zen circles. Is this a definitive experience or merely another phase of the spiritual-transformation process?
Echard: Several books written by Western authors emphasize "satori" or "kensho," a kind of peak experience arising out of meditation in which we intensely experience the reality or ground of our being. But ENLIGHTENMENT IS REALLY A WAY OF BEING IN THE WORLD WHICH CORRESPONDS WITH THE GROUND OF OUR BEING AND THEREFORE IS AN EXPRESSION OF IT. As such, the goal of spiritual practice should be intrinsic to itself -- like any practice which has meaning. That is to say, when we practice zazen, we should be just practicing without any idea about what we're going to gain or not gain.
Lamar: Do special experiences such as "satori" serve any purpose?
Echard: Special experiences are fine; they are expressions of our practice, just like the periods of suffering that result from our ignorance. And if we use "satori" as a springboard to throw us into our practice and particularly if we use it as a springboard for compassion, that is, if we want to share this deep feeling of freedom and joy with other beings, then it's positive.
But if we allow it to insulate ourselves, and we try to get stuck in the moment, then we end up being a kind of Zen psychopath, and there's more than a few of those running around, some of which are "roshis," as a matter of fact.
Lamar: Sometimes I see short courses to a state of enlightenment offered, ranging from six weeks to two years. I really wonder how effective they can possibly be.
Echard: (Laughing) I love some of these things, too. I think my favorite was an ad in one of these New Age magazines which said, "Achieve in twenty minutes what it takes a Zen priest to achieve in twenty years." The only thing I know of that's consistent with Zen priests after twenty years is hemorrhoids. Since this thing attached to the head, it definitely was a mystical operation.
It would be wonderful if reality could be divided up into little sound bytes, but it doesn't work that way. When you're finished with your two week's short course and you have to go back into the big bad world, you feel calm and peaceful for the first forty minutes on the way home. And then somebody runs you off the road, and you've lost your entire practice. That's usually the way it works.
Lamar: How does a student of Zen recognize the enlightenment stage?
Echard: (Laughing) Well, you have to be like a Hollywood vampire. That is, when you look in the mirror, you can't see yourself. Instead, enlightenment is like two mirrors facing one another with all things reflected within them. Both mirrors are of the same substance, and there is nothing in either of them that is independent of their mutual reality.
When the mirror becomes perfectly clean, when you no longer feel a tension with the world, when your heart is so full of wisdom and compassion that little or nothing disturbs it, then you can say that you are abiding, at least for that time, in enlightenment.
Lamar: How long does this process take?
Echard: The deeper and the more you practice, the more you realize that parts of your being still require work, so you just practice. That's all. Spiritual practice is something that has no final goal, so there's no end to it. How long does it take to go nowhere? Forever, or you're already there.
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This document was given to Tiger Team with the express purposes of sharing Buddhism with the general public. You may copy and distribute this document in its original form.
You may reach Stephen Echard Roshi at the Zen Institute of San Diego (619) 582-9888. He is available for retreats, sesshins, and lectures.
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