UFO Debate Forum
Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->96 of 124
Sub ->Re: Evolving life
To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON F ECKER (#17)
Date ->09/04/88 02:33:20 PM
Michael, in reading your last message, several questions immediately come to mind.
First-do you talk like this in public:
a. often
b. sometimes
c. almost never
d. never
Second-if you do talk like this in public; does anyone understand what you are
elucidateing?
a. always
b. sometimes
c. almost never
d. never
Just curious. This is the UFO debate board, so as to get back on track, I
through this at you, now lets see if you catch it.
I understand that you have shown an interest in the material concerning the MJ-12 papers. I was the one to have uploaded this to the board, and have personally talked to some of the people that are alleged to have uncovered this. I am presently working on a paper that deals with some of this material and am quite familiar with this.
What are your feelings about what you have read so far, and do you think that there is anything to this at this point? I will be checking daily, and will be very interested in what you have to say.
Don Ecker
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Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->97 of 124
Sub ->RoseGlass
To ->DON F ECKER (#17)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/05/88 01:18:16 AM
REPLY--Sect 001
A. & B. Yes I always talk like that, I love language and puzzle over appropriate word and ACCURACY of usage. [eg: if you are sickened by something are you nauseous or nauseated?] and what is omphaloskepsis, anyway? John Lear probably knows, which brings me to....
REPLY--Sect 002
Don, it is my understanding that you have around ten years experience with UFO's and the paranormal. The most I can say is that as a kid I had an intense [to the point of obsession] fascination with the idea of alien craft and what they implied. Then, again, I had an obsession with space: science and science fiction, astronomy and astrology. The more imagination one possesses the more real the paranormal tends to be: Sasquatch, ghosts, goblins, djinn, dragons that lived to this day.
The interest has matured to a fascination with legends of various cultures, myths and tales passed down. I like the unexplained and odd: plants with emotions, the curse of Tutankhamen, the Maya and their invention of Zero, giants on Easter island, Spring-heeled Jack, The Mary Celeste, The Angels of Mons, the faces of Belmez. In almost all these things I can believe with little difficulty. Even when finally explained I prize such things for their initial mystery.
Despite my fascination and willingness to entertain almost any thought, the John Lear text is too neat of a fit, too appealing to the xenophobe to possess the probity necessary to serious consideration.
It takes its plot from half a dozen works of fiction (Childhood's End, Arther C. Clarke; "V", a TV series from the early 80's), plays upon the human fears of enslavement and pain and makes nonsensical claims. It tries too hard to be convincing and uses phrases such as "horrible truth" like a tabloid aiming to frighten rather than inform. It employs far to much speculation and doesn't attempt to separate fact from guesswork, nor does it take into account peoples' tendency to joke; The first time the dark side of the moon was examined by our own space craft, there occurred an odd transmission, meant as a joke, that sent press scrambling for their recorders: "We've located a large, black monolith...."
It contradicts itself in that the 'first contact' was at a 'prearranged' meeting place. It underestimates the curiosity of the press corps -- Geraldo, if no other, does not mind making a fool of himself for the sake of sensationalism and, in fact, neither does Dan Rather. If there is indeed something for the press to follow, it may simply be reluctance to cover old subjects, rather than pride, keeping their microphones silent.
The idea of an atrophied digestive track has a few medical barriers to it, although conceivably it could occur through genetic damage. However, I am told by a medico friend of mine that obtaining sufficient nutrition through the skin in the manner described would entail almost constant submersion in addition to a plethora of metabolic supplements. The idea of metabolizing through a semi-permeable membrane is nothing new, individual cells do it all the time, but the process the EBE's use would also carry foreign agents into their skin [H2O2 does not eliminate all bacteria or their waste products and has little effect on some viruses]. The constant elimination of waste through the skin would give them a slimy, amphibian, appearance, and a smell to match. No such thing is noted. If the story were true, however, it seems obvious that contamination of their food source would be relatively easy.
No mention is made of environment control. given the structure of the eyes and the texture of the skin, the reptilian, "mantis-like" appearance, our world must be cold and bright for them, even if the air is breathable and their immunity up to the variation of our microbes.
In short, Don, while the text is a great bit of doomsaying, I find the vacillation of fact and fantasy to be contraindicative of a genuinely informed individual, however inimitable John Lear may be.
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Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->98 of 124
Sub ->Re: RoseGlass
To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON F ECKER (#17)
Date ->09/05/88 02:49:49 AM
Michael, what I suggested discussing first is the MJ-12 material. Well, no problem, if you wish, let us discuss the Lear paper. I have talked to John on numerous occasions, and I am convinced that HE is convinced. Lets take a quick look at what he is saying, and then decide if it has any merit.
Lear claims that the government is hiding the truth. Is this possible in our democracy? First we have to ask what truth are they supposed to have hidden? What he claims is that the US government has hidden the facts surronding the alledged crash of a craft in Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947. Is there any evidence for this? YES, and I might add, it is overwhelming. William Moore, and Charles Berlitz wrote a book titled "The Roswell Incident" that was released in 1980, and this lays out all the facts surronding this case in exellent detail. Prior to his death, the Air Force Intelligence Officer that was one of the first on the scene, gave all the facts to Moore, surronding the case, plus over < 80 > other witnesses to the event. If you are interested in the subject matter, I strongly urge you to read this account. Now you may say that this is a case that is 40 years in the past, what has happened since then. A LOT. A BIG case occured in Bentwaters England at an American Air Base in 1980, that involved sightings of craft by numerous Air Force Personell, including the Deputy Base Commander ( I have a copy of his statement ) and also an alledged encounter with the craft occupants, and the Base Commander. CNN did a special on the incident in 1983, and if you are interested in it, I can make arrangements for you to see it, and the other documents I have.
Now what else did Lear alledge? Well, he states that in 1964 that elements of the US government met offically for the first time with the enitys in the craft, and since then have come to an arragement with them for an exchange of their technology. This is a real tough one, and I could not even guess about it with out some type of proof. Do I think that this COULD be possible? Yes, without a doubt, this COULD be possible, however I don't know. Remember, this is the same country that worked out deals with the Chinease Govt in secret in 1971 and 1972, and the same guys that dealt covertly with the North Vietnamease during the war, and lets not forget the White House Plumbers, the CIA BLACK operations and the rest. Now according to Lear, one of the parts of the deal that the government was alledged to have made was to allow the enitys to "abduct" humans to "study" an emerging civilazation. Is there any proof that something like this is occuring? Yes, but I won't go into it now for the sake of brevity. I will suggest that if you want to study this aspect of the enigma, read Hopkins exellent books "Missing Time" and also "Intruders". Also Striebers Book "Communion" would be recommended. As for much eariler works concerning this, before the word "Abduction" became well known, read any of John Keels books, but the very first one I would recommend would be his work "The Mothman Prophecies". These would be a good start.
As far as John Lear is concerned, he is convinced that he is on the right track, but don't you and I throw the baby out with the bathwater. We may not agree with all of what Lear says, but he makes points in quite a few areas that are worth looking at.
Now you may wonder if I think there is anything to ALL of this, and if you ask me, I will tell you yes I do. I will be more than happy to continue this, but will wait for your response to the above. Also, our second newsletter will be ready in a very short time, and I will recommend you read the interview I conducted with Jim Speiser.
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Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->99 of 124
Sub ->Bathwater
To ->DON F ECKER (#17)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/05/88 12:08:43 PM
I have my own reasons for knowing that the incident in New Mexico did occur, even if not in the way described in the allegedly authentic document. I suspect that it is one reason we developed epoxy resins to the extent we did. I therefore have no problem with the claims of the document.
The government can and does hide things all the time, although in their minds it is often the only way to proceed as they wish to avoid panic and the plodding slowness of congressional approval [though I wish it were not so, it often is the case that it is better to proceed covertly and take lumps later so that the country's reflexes are not dimmed by panic or debate.]
All I remember about CNN's coverage was a couple of vague interviews and a lot of allege's. Admittedly, I did not pay close attention to the segment (In 83, I was probably struggling with the new UNIX system.) Keep in mind that documents do not constitute proof unless the document may be proven to be authentic. I am no judge of authenticity -- R. Heinlein has come up with some pretty convincing stuff and Ray Bradbury came up with some great photographic duplications using kitchen implements and passed both originals and mockups around the table at a conference in Salt Lake City. I could not tell the difference.
Again, with the idea of abductions, I am not disturbed. I have been aware of the occurrence for a long while and, in addition, have been of the opinion that one race is responsible, not many as some would claim. Too my knowledge, the only substantiated [in that they've never been satisfactorily explained] incidents are ones in which the most the study subject received was a bruise and minor trauma wouldn't you blank out their memory?. Your subject is no good if by studying it, you change its behavior. It was once different, you know. Once they took it as a honor to be brought aboard such a craft, religious frenzy, will of the gods and all that. And yes, the subjects are tagged. But aren't the animals we study also tagged? In the case of Big Cats, we've even got a combination radio transmitter/hypo to locate and, if necessary, sedate the target. I've got a date for you to play with: Mar, 2011. By the way, I've read communion; it was on the best-seller list. I try to read all of them that come across that list, with the exception of the, uh, work of Michael Jackson and Danielle Steel. The book was well written, entertaining, and grammatically average.
John Lear is inimitable and hard to discredit, but I do not believe he is convinced of all he says. He doesn't know enough. He hasn't even gone to the trouble to find out why the bovine tissues that are sampled are used or what they have in common, though he did at least mention that the cells are neatly divided in some cases. The technical end of his expose is shoddy and un- researched and this, in my mind, tends to shade the rest with doubt. "Horrible truth....run like hell," indeed! t with
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Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->100 of 124
Sub ->Re: Bathwater
To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON F ECKER (#17)
Date ->09/05/88 01:52:42 PM
Michael, I have read your response with great interest. I agree with much of what you have stated, and disagree with some of it. As far as Lear is concerned, let me once more state to you and the board that I have never agreed with all in his hypothesis, however I do know that some of what he alledges have been verified through other sources.
After he released his paper, he (Lear) called our board, because he had read about us through Paranet Alpha. I then contacted him for the first time, and within one week, he sent me copies of all the documents that he used to support what he alledged. Rick has seen many of these, and if nothing else can be said about them, at first look they are impressive as hell. Oh, and yes, I do know what he alledges about the cattle. If you are interested, let me know, and anytime you are free, I will be more than happy to show you what I have. This invitation is also extended to all that show an interest. Also, I might add at this point that in October, and this will be announced, Rick and myself and Don Mason will be giving the first of several presentations on information we have collected in the field of ufology. Now back to the debate.
Just what is it that you are stating at this point? You say that you are aware about Roswell, through personal information. Ok, I have been in contact with Stan Friedman of MJ-12 fame, and would love to chat with you via voice or in person. You have intrigued me. Next, you appear to believe that the abductions have some basis in truth, so do I. What I have stated time after time is, I do not know what is occuring, only that something is. I, as a policeman have been involved in an investigation with a cattle mute, I know that something did it, but it wasn't preditors or modern day rustlers. I just want to get to the truth of the matter. I have never stated that I believe in the overworked term "spacemen". There are many other possibilites besides an extraterrestial one. The fact is, I am of the opinion that the government, our government is very concerned, and since in our republic, we are supposed to be the government, I want to be told. The term that is always bandied about is we are withholding information because of national security. Hogwash in over 50 percent of the cases. (maybe much more) While in the U. S. Army, I had a Top Secret Clearence with a crypto access, I do know something about this, and any time the beaurocrats get caught with their collective fingures in the pie, National Security is trumpeted through the Hallowed Halls. Alright, in many cases this may be very well justified, however in the decade after Viet Nam, not to mention Watergate, what we see is a Cosmic Watergate, and the excuse that the government is afraid to panic the public just will NOT WASH. For well over 10 years, the public has been conditioned, either with purpose, or maybe not, but conditioned to except the idea of an alien visatation. Star Trek, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, E. T., and Star Wars I, II, III. to name just a few. This is not 1938, with Orson Wells scaring the hell out of people, this is 1988, and we have sent craft out of this solar system, we have landed man on the moon, and have conducted unmanned exploring of our closest planetary neigbors. I can not believe in what the reasons could be for the government or the military to hide these facts. The reasons I come up with for the Feds to stonewall however are not good. They are worried as hell. Why?
NOW THAT DOES CONCERN ME.
Don
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Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->101 of 124
Sub ->Re: skyisfalln
To ->DON F ECKER (#17)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/05/88 03:35:40 PM
What agrees with you, and what does not? What has been supported through other sources? What sources and to what extent?
Do the documents have signatures, whose, and have they been authenticated? By whom?
I said that I have my own reasons for knowing the Rosell incident to have taken place, nothing more, and nothing more shall be said. Have you ever noticed that any wreckage not recovered from these sights is assumed to have burned up on entry? I've wondered at that for a long time.
Abductions can hardly be denied now, can they? But the negative responses to them are relatively new. The incident on the airfield wherein an officer was seen to have been picked up by a GEV, and then his mutilated remains were found later intrigues me. I should like to see the coroner's report, and his speculation as to the instruments used and their origin.
Don, conditioned is a strong word. There has been a certain revolution in how aliens are regarded, but I would think that this is due to other factors, if for no other reason than Occam's razor. This alteration of general opinion may obviate a great many problems should a general insertion become obvious. Abject fear of the unknown does nobody any good and can be down right irritating. Regardless, the only stupidity aliens are going to worry about is most likely that of the governing bodies. They could very well blow themselves and everyone else up trying to obliterate the unseen. I know that their National Security cry wont wash anymore. But neither will the They're Hiding Something cry. If you want to stir things up a bit, go to the other side and say, "They've a hold on EBE technology -- some weapon they don't understand yet...(why do they always assume something that can destroy is a weapon?)" then come back to this side and do the same. Of course, there again, you need some convincing proof beyond stories of a manipulatable EM field generator.
And the Federal Agents are worried for the same reasons you are.
I've got something else for you to chew on, Don, Purely speculative nonsense, nevertheless entertaining. Can you give me one example wherein humans have respected the rights of those creatures lower than themselves, even where evident intelligence occurred? C'mon Don! The other end of the stick can't thus be wielded for that. I will say one thing for the lower life, though. While they may run away, they never turn on each other in response to a perceived external threat./VOL2/rceived external threat.BULLETIN
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Numb ->102 of 124
Sub ->Re: skyisfalln
To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON F ECKER (#17)
Date ->09/05/88 07:03:52 PM
Michael, what can I say? If it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, if water rolls off its back, and if it has a bill and webbed feet, what else can it be? If the "authorites" are hiding or conceling something, then that is what they are doing. Calling it something else is similar to someone hiding their head in the sand, and refusing to accept the facts. A person either has studied the subject, and come to a conclusion about the subject, or they refuse to look at it because that person finds it too unsettling. You asked me what documents, and whom signed them, and whom authinicated them. Well which ones do you refer to? Let me know, and I will try and get the information to you. If you are attempting to get me to defend Lears paper, I refuse untill such time as he presents much more proof. What I said about that several messages ago is that some of what he alledges appears to be correct, NOT ALL. So, once more I will ask, where do you stand, do you refute that something is occuring, or do you believe that something may be? And why did you begin with Lear, because it is sensational, or at first glance it appears to be ludricous? To even begin to think one has a firm grasp on this subject, you must wade through the garbage, to get to the facts, and the biggest problem with this subject is to recognize the facts when one stumbles over them.
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Numb ->103 of 124
Sub ->Justin Boggs a biography
To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->CURTIS WARD (#9)
Date ->09/06/88 05:09:16 PM
What significance does Justin's psyche provide for us?
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Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->104 of 124
Sub ->Re: Justin Boggs a biography
To ->CURTIS WARD (#9)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/06/88 06:28:38 PM
Quite obviously, none. Thus, the improptu posting of it was neither useful, nor counterproductive but simply 'there.' Like BRA.
I must admit, however, that I found the part about his toenails amusing.
Michael K. Graham
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Numb ->105 of 124
Sub ->Ducks have no scales
To ->DON F ECKER (#17)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/08/88 02:19:22 AM
Don, you seem to be loosing me here. Your answers are making little sense. You ask, 'is it possible something is hidden?' The obvious answer is yes, as anything is possible. However, it is much easier to hide a mouse than an elephant. I might as well claim that the veteran's administration was knocking off vet's one by one in nasty little experiments to duplicate Kissenger. Is it possible they could be doing that with 25% of Vet's reassimilated into society missing, unaccounted for? Of course. That would certainly be easier to hide than the 'horrible truth.' But I give you the Roswell incident as an apriori. No debate.
You make claims for a CNN special, and offer to present it. Well and good, but I need not see it, only know if CNN came out and said, 'Today base commander such-and-so met for the first time with visitors from another planet,' or is it more, as I suspect, a case of, 'this is the base where three people claimed to have seen....even going so far as to state....as an excuse for not having returned on time from a routine range inspection.' Any of this COULD be possible, Don. You COULD slip out of your bathtub and die tomorrow. You COULD be bitten by a Gila Monster out in the Kuna Desert, being the first in history to have received that distinction. Paranoia does not land on bases and eat people, though people have died from fright.
So then, to further clarify myself, not on MJ-12 as I've given that apriori, but on the Lear material, with which you have intimated partial agreement: I say the phenological phenomena known collectively as abductions are at most, most reasonably, and no more significant than, simple tagging and release, similar to what we do with lower animals of Earth with no more than the obvious implications to follow; We are the subject of a study. The documents Lear uses to support his claims must be signed, verified by a reputable source and cross-checked with other available documents from different sources before they're worth anything other than grist in a SF mill. The reason for such precaution is that with a laser printer, a photocopy of your signature and a little time, I can make it look as if you signed the We-Want-the-Bakers-Back petition for the PTL. TO LOOK IMPRESSIVE IS INSUFFICIENT. TO SEEM GENUINE IS INSUFFICIENT. Do you have any idea what I could do with a CRAY and a video tape? Any argument presented without unbiased support from unrelated sources is suspect. You say the Fed's are worried. About what are the worried--MJ-12? Abductions? Mutilations? Or the ever elusive Hidden Circumstance? Be careful with your answer as admitting that the feds are worried about any of these is to affirm your belief in the validity of their fear. Claiming that they're worried about you-don't-know-what is to evince directionless paranoia. An Evolution, or revolution of thought, does not necessitate a causal relationship with external factors, but comes of itself and is natural. Therefore, when I say 'Conditioned is a strong word,' it is a polite way of saying 'hogwash,' the meaning of which is relatively clear, despite its nonsense. To say the public's mind has been conditioned is to say that your duck has a furry tail and fangs.
It is quite easy to have a firm grasp on a subject to which there is relatively little; One may examine what evidence there is, check for some valid sort of verification, evaluate it in the light of other, previously validated evidence and either keep or discard it. Going by the chance you might 'recognize' a fact without due process (as if a fact carried a particular smell, or wore a peculiar hat) could well enslave your perceptions to the amount of wind in your digestive tract.BULLETIN
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Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->106 of 124
Sub ->"Ducks and Saucers"
To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON F ECKER (#17)
Date ->09/08/88 10:24:49 AM
Michael, lets see if I can try once more and explain what you are apparently missing. Why do you keep coming back to the Lear material? As I have explained already on several occasions, I do not buy what he alledges without a lot more proof that may or may not be forthcoming. Lear set a very nice table, unfortunatly no main course. He alledges and supposes, but to this point no evidence but lot of suppostion. Done, ok?
Now, what did I state? The government appears worried? You bet, now how did I arrive at this conculsion? Do I have a "Deep Throat" feeding me this? Of course not, I don't even know Linda Lovelace, but I do read, and a great place for YOU to start is Phil Imbrognos "Night Seige". Now what does this reference have to do with the Feds concern of UFO's? Well for a start, On July 24, 1984, in the Hudson Valley of New York, the giant UFO that has continually appeared in that area < check for references in Para Lib. > flew over the Indian Point Nuclear Reactor, and hovered over Reactor # 3. The event was so shocking to the Plants Security force (the airspace is restricted, and guards armed) that the Security Supervisor was ready to order the officers to open fire. The incident took about 10 minutes, as this was how long the craft hovered there.
Imbrogno recieved the information from 6 security officers that were on duty when the incident occured, and since then, Imbrogno confirmed ( I spoke to him) that the plant has experinced a "power drain" that the plant cannot locate. The plant was initally "over run" with government agents, and military after the above mentioned incident.
Ok now lets go for another incident that these things scared hell out of our military and civilan authorites. In the UFO classic catagorey, "Clear Intent" stands above all the rest. Written by Fawcett and Greenwood, the content of the book is ALL taken from government memos, documents, and information gleaned from classified material released under the FOIA. Clear Intent does to government UFO secrecy, what Watergate did to Nixon. Tore the wrapping right off it, and exposed what was underneath. In the mid seventys, a series of sightings or "flap" was occuring, much like what is now going on. In the Dakotas, where the Air Force ICBM bases are, is some of the most heavily secured areas in the world, outside of the Soviet Union. A series of incurrsions began with these craft over flying the bases, and cumilated in several craft coming down, and apparntly landing in the nuclear storeage area. The base commander put the base on alert, which, since we are talking about this countries nuclear deterent, the entire nuclear structure was put on alert. Jet aircraft, and special response teams were scrambled and to say the least, several very tense days were experienced. No UFO's were captured, but upon the military checking their nuclear ordnance, the targeting computers were altered! In other words, the nuclear missles that the UFO had hovered over, were changed as to where they would impact if fired. This was verified by Fawcett and Greenwood by using the FOIA to get government documents released.
Now I didn't want to start resiting various cases, but can if you insist. So Michael, what are you saying? Is it paranoia, or forsight? Are you saying that Ok , maybe there is something happening, and ya, maybe there are abductions, and ya, Uncle Sam is hiding something, and ya, maybe he does lie a little about it, and ya, ok, so what if he does try to chase these things with jets, but-hey, he ain't worried. After all, after 40 years of feeding the public BS, and doing his collective damndest to make folks look like nuts when they report something outside of their experience, he just got in the habit of lying, and is having a hard time breaking himself of it. Well, the way I feel,
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Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->107 of 124
Sub ->Re: "Ducks and Saucers"
To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON F ECKER (#17)
Date ->09/08/88 10:29:54 AM
CONT:
Well the way I feel is this, since this is the US, and since the citizens are supposed to be the government, I want to know what Uncle Sugar is concealing. If it doesn't breach TRUE National SECURITY ie: the Russians, then I want to make up my own mind about what is really going on. Maybe you aren't concerned about all the secrecy and duplicity, I am however.This Cosmic Watergate could be the biggest story of this or anyother century, and I want to get to the bottom of it.
doneo
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Sub ->Re: "Ducks and Saucers"
To ->DON F ECKER (#17)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/09/83 12:04:50 AM
Awright, AWRIGHT already. Sheesh. YOU mentioned convincing documents concerning Lear, not I. All I did was ask for validation. Ok, lear having been shown as bearing highly questionable testimony, is gone then, not apriori, simply outside the scope of this argument until he gets real.
Gee, Beave. Looked at night siege as I unpacked it along with ALIEN ABDUCTIONS and COMMUNION and STRANGERS AMONG US and....Ah, yes here it is: THE SOULLESS ONES [now there's a title for Linda Loveless.]. Night siege has some great pictures of white dots and streaks across featureless black, oooh and some drawings, all carefully diagramed for us ingenues but, no great surprise, nothing conclusive, only stories that read like the testimony of a marionette.
'kay, now what? Oh, the PARAlib [sort of like MAD TAB LIBs, eh?] -- got my own copies of those, right here. Stuff and nonsense. Hudson Valley sightings and all, Indian Point is equipped with a hell of a surveillance system, and I've heard no mention about footage of this craft. Neither could I spot any notation of electromagnetic anomaly, such as would usually accompany a ground effect vehicle. An unlocatable power loss is all they'll say, huh? No between reaction chamber and turbine 5, or line number seven leading to fuel rods is comeforthing? [Southern comforth, preferably]. And feds, huh? Now there's a tell-tale sign of alien interference, let me boy howdy! Try calling in with a bomb threat to a nuclear power plant some time, and see how fast just this kind of invasion occurs.
Paranoia or foreskin; hmm, hard one to call; give me a sec. Let's try to trace your logical progression as we now know it.
One person tells of six who say they say a UFO, even
drawing picture as illustration. Feds show up and
plant remains heavily guarded for at least a week [or
so it should be according to the scenario script
handbook]. Somebody else says, 'power loss' but we
don't know from where. Concl: Aliens.
Lets try to duplicate this reasoning in another context.
One person tells of six others who say they saw Don in
red Mercedes, not his. They even draw the car with Don
in it. Police show up on Don's doorstep to ask
questions. Don's car breaks down. Concl: Aliens
One more time, to see if I got this right.
I am pressed for time. In the shower my soap slips
over the door, executing a 9.5 pirouette off the
counter into the toilet. Statistically staggering.
Then my coffee machine jams a coil and my car wont
start. Concl: Aliens.
Got to admit, Don, I like it! Aliens blamed for shuttle misfiring and missing children. Aliens zap Bush's mind into believing it's December seventh. Aliens replaced our real senator with Syms. It explains a lot. So what is Uncle Sam concealing and, more importantly, when we find out, will he turn out to be kosher?
Michael K. Graham
BULLETIN
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Sub ->Sphere
To ->Don Mason
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/10/88 12:33:03 PM
Don1, in may of the alleged abductions mentioned in accounts of UFO encounters, there in made mention of a sphere, approximately 2mm in diameter, placed next to the brain.
Given the tremendous size in relation to the proximate neurons, it would be easy to detect and recover through CAT scan. Has this ever been attempted. If so, what were the results? If nothing was detected then is there sufficient indication that this particular aspect of recent abductions could be a fad, as it were, of would-be abductees?RD.MAILJ&K
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Sub ->"Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON F ECKER (#17)
Date ->09/10/88 01:29:16 PM
Michael, got hold of your "foreskin"?
Ok, to answer your previous msg, if you have read Night Siege, you should be aware of what Imbrogno had to say in chapter 11, ie: "Close Encounter at Indian Point". On two occasions Imbrogno interviewed the security officers, once he taped the interview, and on the second occasion, because of security considerations, the officers requested he not tape, but Imbrogno did take notes.
You made mention of the plant security system, and why did it not record the object on either of the occasions it over flew the plant. Again, had you read the report your questions would have been answered. On page 149, one of the officers that had been working the security console stated " I turned my camera in that direction, and I saw eight bright lights in a V shape, very wide, almost like a half circle. They were at least as bright as the landing lights on a large jet. My supervisor and I panned the camera up and down, and the object was very large, < bigger than a football field >". As Imbrogno reported in this chapter, they panned the object for 15 minutes, not knowing what it could be.
Now you also mentioned no reports of any electromagnetic anomalies, or interference. Once more Michael, you really must read this account, because on page 150, you recieve the answers. I will list them as Imbrogno did:
1. As the object approached the east gate of Reactor # 3, the entire Nuclear Plant security system shut down.
2. Inside the security console, the computer that controls all security and comm links shut down. 3. The security commander contacted Camp Smith, a New York National Guard base, about 10 miles away, and requested someone to ID the object. No reply was given, then the commander requested a armed helicopter to shoot the object down. The UFO moved away at this point.
4. The next day, the commander of the security officers informed them that "nothing happened" and to forget the incident.
Now I will skip over the part where civillian witnesses called police to also report the object, and will start with number 7.
7. As Imbrogno states "A videotape of the object may exist, since all the security cameras automatically record everything they see and the tapes are kept for a certain period of time before being reused". The plant authorities say no such tape exists. 8. All radio traffic is also recorded, but no tapes exist for that night.
9. In the days following the incident, officials from the U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission visited the plant, and the entire security setup underwent a shakeup.
Continued next msg.
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Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON F ECKER (#17)
Date ->09/10/88 01:51:54 PM
After the sightings at the Indian Point Plant, Gerry Culliton, a reporter from WVIP, a radio station in Mt. Kisco, New York, tried to get the Management from the Indian Point Plant to speak. They refused. He was then able to get a statement from Carl Patrick, who worked in the plants information office. Patrick stated that yes there were sightings at the plant of unidentified nature, and that the New York State Police investigated, and arrested 4 Cessna pilots. Imbrogno checked to verify this, and police reports showed that NO one had been arrested. The reporter requested that the plant release a copy of the UFO incident report, and the plant refused on the basis that all reports were kept confidential to protect security at the plant site.
Imbrogno stated several times after his book, written with Dr. J. Allen Hynek, a former U. S. Airforce Consultant on UFO's, that Hynek wanted no mention of any of the stranger aspects of these encounters mentioned in the book. Hynek, prior to his death in 1986, had hoped to be able to determine just what was occuring, but after he died, and the book was published, Imbrogno made mention of the other aspects of the case. I have talked to him several times, and if you have been following the uploads I am posting, you will see mention of animal mutes, abductions and so forth. I do not know what is occuring, however, anyone can see the fact that reports such as Indian Point are being suppressed, and there is government interest. The security officers at this plant would not manufacture reports such as these, especially with the consequences that would occur if found out. The fact that the security systems failed, communications failed, and the reported size of the object, points to the fact that something outside of most of our experience is happening, and is ongoing.
You asked Don Mason about the reported 2 or 3 MM spheres. This type of report has surfaced in many of the reported abductions from all over the U. S. Since Mason is right now on vacation, I will answer from what knowledge I presently have. At this point, I do not know of any incident where one has been recovered. Several months ago, I heard that one MIGHT have been recovered in Europe, but no futher reports, so I have discounted it. The question about CAT Scans however is a good one. I asked that myself to Imbrogno, and according to what he told me, Bud Hopkins, who as you may know, studies the abduction aspects of these cases, was going to have one of his cases studied by having a CAT Scan completed. I did not hear anymore on this.
And so it goes................................
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Sub ->Re: Sphere
To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON MASON (#145)
Date ->09/11/88 12:41:52 AM
Mike to my knowledge none have been found with cat scan. However I might point at this time, the only people that have been checked, were discovered to have already had it removed. I don`t really consider myself well versed on the implants, but have read some on it. Their may be findings that I`m not aware of at this time. The cases that I know of the person had already had it removed after a second abduction. It seems to that on the first abduction the implanting takes place and then years (can be several to many)later the person appears to be abducted the second time and then the implant is removed.
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Sub ->Re: Sphere
To ->DON MASON (#145)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/11/88 11:40:39 AM
Ah, but a CAT scan would provide detail enough to provide a track of scarring, even as small as a needle. There should be some evidence of this in those victims that have had the probe removed.
The tissue trauma should be especially evident in those cases reporting nosebleed the following morning. Surely with all these reported abductions, one must be able to provide passive proof of the occurrence.BULLETIN
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Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
To ->DON F ECKER (#17)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/11/88 11:43:00 AM
I. My apologies to Don Ecker for neglecting to thoroughly examine the account of Indian Point before raising the obvious questions. Still, I will raise the objections because they are good points and points of weakness.
A. Any account by a believing individual will, of course, reflect that initial belief and sap the efficacy of the account.
1. Night siege, in my opinion, seeks to convince.
2. Imbrogno would seem a believer.
B. Any account by a skeptic will reflect that initial skepticism and will emphasize the quotidian aspects of a given incident.
1. Night Siege lacks that sarcastic quality that I tend to associate with the other side of the UFO argument.
2. The presentation of the material is such that the authorities end up looking like fools, instead of men doing their jobs.
C. The best accounts are given by impartial paracletes, dedicated to accuracy and disdaining to speculate.
1. I would say that Night Siege would best be taken with another account of the same incidents by a skeptic.
2. If no hard documentation of the incident is found, some record, some film, some thing, then an argument could be made, and made well, for mass hysteria [hysteria is not the same as panic, but often incorporates a feeling of calm.]
3. Though mass hysteria is clearly a ludicrous explanation, it would more likely be accepted as easier to believe.
II. Missing data, purloined, concealed, or erased, does not
function as proof of an argument, however suggestive its absence
may seem.
A. Logically, a bar-x statement is true if and only if x is false; subsequently if x is false, bar-x is true and thus all statements not x function as true.
1. Eg: if {the car is green} is false, then {not the car is green} is true, thus all other colors for the car function as true until they each in turn are proven false.
2. The missing documentation of Indian Point functions as {not there is proof}, providing such documentation is defined as proof and proof as such documentation. The result is that all other explanations except {there is proof} become true, and must be eliminated one by one. Night Siege, in my opinion, does
not achieve this end. ULLETIN
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Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON F ECKER (#17)
Date ->09/11/88 04:55:45 PM
Michael, it is apparent you still have not taken the time to read "Night Siege". If anything Imbrogno is a skeptic, but how do we define what type of skeptic? First, you imply that sarcasm is the criteria that an investigator must use when investigating a case. I can imagine how far that would have gotten me had I have used that technique when questioning wittnesses, while a police officer!. Sorry Michael, that will not wash. What one uses is a questioning mind, and trying all the angles to see what and what is not possible. Let us not forget what the witnesses state that they observed. When you have the THOUSANDS of accounts, I think then anyone of reasonable intelligence must presume that something indeed out of the ordinary must be occuring. Next, Imbrogno himself saw the object. Now to the question of what type of skeptic is Imbrogno? Does he believe that these objects are extraterr~rxQ,}:]_}
extraterrestial? No, and when Hynek was alive, he w,uld he would not have allowed that type of thinking while researching the material. Question, and question some more. Pratt and Imbrogno wanted this book to be a testimony to Hynek, and if anything, they would draw no conclusions, untill all the evidence was in. Well the book is published, and the evidence is still pouring in. In any court of law the evidence would have been overwhelming over the past 40 years.
You still question whether the government is concerned, or even investigating this enigma. Well, for years the G has denied that they even concern themselves with reports. Well, since the Freedom of Information Act or FOIA, the Feds have been proven false. Well over 5000 documents have been received from the Federal Government, from various agencies, that deal entirely with the subject of UFO's. Military aircraft chases, overflights of military installations, Federal Intelligence Agency reports, with many of the documents being censored prior to release. You are too intelligent to believe otherwise Michael, now I think you are merely in the debate simply for the enjoyment of using your $1.25 vocabulary. Eh??
Don
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Sub ->Re: Sphere
To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON MASON (#145)
Date ->09/11/88 05:28:05 PM
Mike , not being a doctor I don`t know if cat-scan will detect scars or not, all I know is that the people that are doing the investigating are doing so with the help of people that are well trained in their jobs,(doctors,shrinks, and etc.). These investigators also are not revealing everything to the public at this time, they are just collecting all the information that is possible, and looking at the picture from that point. I`m sure that once they have established a pattern and motive from enough of the people that have been abducted, they will then consider releasing more information to the public. These investigators are being very careful as to what they say until they feel that there is more than enough proof of what they suspect..
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Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
To ->DON F ECKER (#17)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/12/88 09:08:02 AM
Whoa there, Tonto. Don't overthink the statements. I said that Night Seige lacked that 'sarcastic quality' that I tend to associate with skepticism. Sarcasm does not necessarily imply mocking, it comes from LL. sarcasmos < Gr. sarkasmos < sarkazein, to tear flesh like dogs, speak bitterly. It implies an intent to ridicule, and I feel that the most revealing flaws of the cases in question will come to light under such scathing ridicule. Alternatively they will not, and the evidence will be stronger for having been questioned. If you propose that officers of law and militia do not engage in the practice of ridiculing the testimony of witnesses, then obviously you've not the experience I thought you had. Even lawyers employ such methods as rapid cross-examination and attempt to obtain some contradictory statement that, through its discrepancy, sheds light on the truth. That, Don, washes clean as virgin snow.
Let me now introduce you to mass hysteria. Mass hysteria is not panic, but it is irrational, though it proceeds at a very rational step. Remember the Salem witch trials? Many more accounts could be had of demons and dragons that roamed the town at night than saucers and lights may be today in the Hudson Valley. Read The June Bug Incident. A most notable quality of mass hysteria, is that the people really believe, and that fads pass through a populace like the smoke of a hidden fire. Possession is the thing one week, poltergeists the next, dwarves the third and everybody deadly serious about it, thousands of them. Reputable, qualified, normally rational people, swore that Satan walked the streets of Salem and they killed thousands of innocent victims in the name of God as proof of their claims. Who can provide me with solid, physical proof that this is not the case in the Hudson Valley? Can you give me anything but pictures, testimony, and missing tapes?K
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Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON F ECKER (#17)
Date ->09/12/88 01:29:14 PM
Michael, Ok, I'll be Tonto, you are now Buckwheat, Ok?
All right, to answer your statement about sarcasm, I'll relate what my Webster says.
SARCASM- to taunt; scoffing gibe; veiled sneer; irony; use of such expression
Now if you think that a police officer initially uses such techniques when questioning a witness to an event, you have no knowledge of such tactics. Yes I will grant that there are times when such techniques are used, such as when a citizen is under investigation for a crime, or suspected of committing a criminal act, however, to infer that this is the modus operandi used each day by police officers shows that you do not understand the tactics of interrogation.
Now let us look at < ridicule > Webster says;
RIDICULE- mockery; raillery;derision; vt to deride;
to mock; to make fun of:
Is this how you REALLY BELIEVE a serious investigation should be conducted? Hey Buckwheat, did you go to the Phill Klass school of UFO Debunking? Many of these witnesses underwent a truely serious traumatic event, regardless of what the events finally turn out to be. No one HERE, or Imbrogno in Hudson Valley is suggesting that the Hudson Valley craft is extraerrestrial, I don't know what it is, and according to Imbrogno and Pratt, they don't know what it is, however, it is. This object has been sighted by thousands of people from all walks of life, police, military, computer consultants, housewives, ministers, priests, etc. but then I am sure you know that. As far as other forms of proof, until the "Proper Authorities" release what they have accumulated, then I imagine no matter what other "proof" I offer, you will find some objection.
My basic premise has been that the government knows much more about what is occuring, and is accumulating documents by the thousands, all the time. They have been proven to have lied, by the Freedom of Information Act, and still maintain that the various agencies under Federal control do not collect UFO documents. Even when presented with their own documents, deny any knowledge of UFO's, or the fact that they investigate such. I call that a coverup, what would you call it?
You mention mass hysteria, and the Salem Witch Trials, and people seeing dragons and demons, and dwarves, and it is my understanding that some people still see such things if they imbibe enough. However, we know such things to be figments of the imagination. The Air Force never to my knowledge chased a flying dragon, or much less launched air to air missles at it. The same can not be said however about UFO's. Dragons or demons have never been picked up on military radar, but "Saucers" have. One last thing, Dragons have never caused a military alert on a U. S. Military base, where Nuclear Weapons are stored, but UFO's have. So, Michael, I will state once again, I do not know what these craft are, but have no doubt that they are here. Oh ya, you ended your last message by asking that other than pictures, testimony, and missing tapes, what else do I offer. Well, how about the fact that hundreds have gone to the "chair" for execution on a lot less "evidence" than the enigma of UFO's, and tons of documents dealing with the subject of UFO's?
... ...-....
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Sub ->Where is Michael "Buckwheat" Grahm????????????????????
To ->All
From ->DON F ECKER (#17)
Date ->09/13/88 10:23:29 PM
Where is Michael? Did he become one of the abducted? I am beginning to become worried. Usally he has bombarded the board with his synonyms. Golly Beave, if "THEY" took him to Mars, will he be back in time for the "RAPTURE"? Oh, NO, what if that in fact is where he did GO?? I guess I better get of some missives to my ex's and hope they DO PUT IN A GOOD WORD!!
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Sub ->Re: Where is Michael "Buckwheat" Grahm????????????????????
To ->DON F ECKER (#17)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/14/88 12:09:30 AM
No, no rapture, although My toes got wet when the sprinklers came on early [in that I didn't realize it was late]. I'm about Night Sieged out, 'tho 'm go'n'a post one more spurt of rhetoric to promote the general welfa. I think that document 28 of Paranormal library 2 was well timed to illustrate my various points.
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Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
To ->DON F ECKER (#17)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/14/88 12:12:15 AM
You were probably a very good officer once, Don. I imagine that you followed procedure correctly, that you were never rude to a civilian, except in reply, and that each and every step of your career was traced out by the ink of some moribund enchiridion. I am sure you held a crypto clearance in the service and were privy to a great many documents demonstrating the perfidious nature of a multi-cellular governmental body but harsh ridicule produces results when deception must be assumed. When police must verify the truth of a matter, they use it. To the extent that they are satisfied with the initial appearance of things, their probe is shallow else it is deep to the extent of their dissatisfaction. If the claims made are logically ridiculous, then they may be proven by that ridiculous quality to be false unless, by reason of irrefutable evidence, the claims stand despite their doubtful nature.
Despite the agathokakological mystique that surrounds UFO's, and the general willingness of the public to take to heart assumptions hastily made, I'm sure the phenomenon was not abiogenetic; It was caused by something. And most scientists, including Carl Sagan, are not such victims of acclumsid vellication that they dismiss 'out of hand' the existence of UFO's, if indeed by UFO's you mean Unidentified Flying Objects. The problem, of course is one of acronymic symbolism: UFO has come to mean 'spacecraft.'
P.J. Imbrogno is well aware of this fact, and the method of presentation, the very packaging of the book, suggest that is exactly the assumption he would have us make, even as he insists that it is not to be made. He is trying to convince with a series of related incidents, not to question their nature.
The inferences to be made from my Salem example are most pellucid; Your circumlocution of the point being made evinces an acknowledgement on your part of the point's validity. I am satisfied with that to the extent that it made the vast crossing from mind to mind and disappointed to the extent that you did not deign a more germane reply.
I think that you, perhaps, believe that I gain some odd adlubescence by running this around in circles, that perhaps pursuit is pointless with one who is so mercurial in his allegiance, one minute for, one against, sometimes neither. I want to believe. I have reason to believe. What there is for proof, and the conclusions being drawn are linked with a bridge of incondite logic, fogged throughout by the lurid fervor of metaphysical superstition [as demonstrated by PARA lib #2, doc. 28]; the testimony and scratched sheets to silver oxides cry for adscititious flesh, a substance for their ghost. Until that need is filled, the wail of doubt must reign.
must reign.
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Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON MASON (#145)
Date ->09/14/88 07:14:20 AM
Mike, speaking of doubt, as you did, makes me at times have doubt about you !!! Is it seem to be a normal way of yours for making up for a complex that may exist in your mind to try to overwhelm one with large words.
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Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
To ->DON MASON (#145)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/14/88 10:25:57 AM
I've never apologized for my vocabulary, unless it gets in the way of understanding. If I had thought it would overwhelm you, I would have toned it down. Looking back at the message I left, the only word I can see that might cause some problem of interpretation is agathokakological which simply means, a mingling or 'with a mingling of good and evil.' It is, of course, an adjective. Here's another on for you: xenodochial, the reverse of xenophobic. xenophobic means afraid of strangers whereas xenodochial means friendly to strangers. My computer recognizes all but....yeah, agathokakological, which is one of those combinations you might only find in the O.E.D.. Now another fun one which leaps to mind [you should never have gotten me on this] is callipygian (adj) which means 'having shpely buttocks.' That might have something to do with my mulierosity, 'being fond of women.' Oops, how about this one: acersecomic, 'one who's hair has never been cut?' The mastery of words is essential to concise communication, and aren't they fun -- they tast good and are so good for you! And only twice the calories!
Michael K. Graham
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Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON F ECKER (#17)
Date ->09/14/88 11:48:17 AM
Michael, once more, clouding the facts with his loquacity.
"Gratiano speaks an an infinite deal of nothing more than any man in Venice; but his reasons are as two grains of wheat hid in two bushels of chaff; you seek all day ere you find them; and when you have them, they are not worth the search."
Shakespeare.
Moribud enchiridion indeed!
Ok, now that the above is out of the way, just what did you say? "Harsh ridicule produces results when deception MUST BE ASSUMED". So you Michael, assume, that the many accounts from the Hudson Valley, running in the thousands I might add, are attempting to be deceptive just by their nature, and all these people are either lying, or are suffering from mass hysteria, or have mistaken natural phenomenon for an Unidentified Flying Object. Notice, I did not say spaceship, and as I have stated repeatedly, I don't know what this thing is, and neither does anyone else I am aware of.
Well Buckwheat, that just won't wash. Why keep referring back to the Salem Witch Trials? What you are dealing with there, is a case close to 400 years old, and the people involved were religious intolerants, not to mention, most of them did not have a sense of humor!
Using your logic, the Holocaust during the Second World War must never have happened. I mean after all Michael what "proof" is there? Just some photographs, and some testimony, but after all, you weren't there to see it. I submit you better go find a couple of survivors, and apply your caustic methods of interrogation at them. Lets find out what really went on, OK?
Now, once more, with feeling, lets take it from the top. I am not suggesting that what is occuring in the Hudson Valley is a "spaceship", what I am saying is that something, however, is occuring. Suggesting that all these thousands of witnesses , miles and miles apart, are seeing the same hallucination, is ludicrous. I don't really believe that you really believe it, do you?
...........
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[B16 #124 of 124] ? for more cmds or Cmd [N]# think that you, perhaps, believe that I gain some odd
adlubescence by running this around in circles, that perhaps pursuit is pointless with one who is so mercurial in his allegiance, one minute for, one against, sometimes neither. I want to believe. I have reason to believe. What there is for proof, and the conclusions being drawn are linked with a bridge of incondite logic, fogged throughout by the lurid fervor of metaphysical superst
n
Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->125 of 133
Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON MASON (#145)
Date ->09/14/88 05:31:08 PM
Hey Mike, I didn`t say that I was overwhelmed, it just appeared that maybe you thought that you could overwhelm some of the people. I`m not shy , if I don`t know of a certain world it doesn`t bother me to look it up. At the same time I do know that some people do have complex`s about their make up and will do what they can to divert others away, to mask what they are lacking. Might I add that you do a good job on your word processor, ok!!!!!!!
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Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->126 of 133
Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
To ->DON F ECKER (#17)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/14/88 10:36:00 PM
O, my Antonio, I do know of these
That therefore only are reputed wise
For saying nothing; when, I am very sure,
If they should speak, would almost damn those ears
Which, hearing them, would call their brothers fools.
--Shakespeare, MERCHANT OF VENICE,I.i.95-99.
It happened as the Autumn evening set cool foot into the settling dust of Summer. In reaching for a flower, Jacob was stung by a bee. His sobs soaked my dress and he shivered in my arms as the warmth of his finger made a puddle of the ice held against it. The sobs quieted, the shivering stopped as the evening folded around us but Jacob's childhood was gone, dashed off into the faded light of Summer's end.
--Michael K. Graham, "A Flick of Feathered Scale [Ch 7, pg. 17]"
Deception is assumed, when fanciful claims are made, because the burden of proof is upon those who make them. But there are those who shall always believe, cling with tenacity to the flickering light at Summer's end. Because they believe, they want others to believe, imputing the skeptic with heresy. Their cries languish, their visions evanesce. The flowering of faith withers in their passing, leaving the cold root of reason to sprout anew.
400 years ago, a little girl named Abigail Williams cried, "witch!" Doctors and lawyers, tailors and soldiers believed and were afraid. A mephitic reek of fear came to the town and before a breeze of reason could clear it, hundreds were dead, slain in the most inhumane ways imaginable.
There seems unavailable a way to inculculate the lesson demonstrated by that and other dark ages of human history. A stochastic outbreak of like sightings and people fall their mental knees. They're a miasma, spreading disease in geometric progression from themselves, convincing others with stories of inimical aliens, breeding unwarranted fear.
The Holocost is engraved in the terminated genealogical tree of thousands of families. It is burned into the earth by mass graves that are still being found. Hundreds of thousands of feet of film, not imbued with imaginative life by a belief that it must be 'hidden somewhere.' are available to anyone with the stomach to watch. They are clear and evident and come from a time that had little ability to alter their testimony, you can date the celluloid. There is no comparison.
Within the scope of this argument, I suggest that hysteria is possible on the scale implied, over the area implied, in the time implied. There is always something going on. The rajneesh eats tonight as do you.
Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->127 of 133
Sub ->Re: Evolving life
To ->JUSTIN BOGGS (#128)
From ->JIM SPEISER (#56)
Date ->09/15/88 07:46:10 PM
Justin:
Really don't have time to get into this with you, but your figures don't tell the whole story. (Assuming their correct in the first place). Since the beginning of time, there may have been 10 to the 64 different per- mutations occuring, making the chances against such proteins NOT evolving approximately 10 to 1. I don't stand behind my figures, but I'd be willing to bet they are conservative.
Its like saying that the chances against four people playing bridge being dealt hands that consisted of A-K in each suit. The odds against something like that occuring are something like a quadrillion to one -- ON ANY ONE HAND. But given all the bridge hands that have been played since the game was invented, its bound to occur some time -- as it once did, in championship play.
Jim
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Numb ->128 of 133
Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON F ECKER (#17)
Date ->09/15/88 10:56:42 PM
Words learned by rote a parrot may rehearse, But talking is not always to converse; Not more distinct from harmony divine, The constant creaking of a country sign.
William Cowper
Impossible is a word only to be found in the dictionary of fools.
Napoleon
Yes Michael, I know that you suggest that the events in the Hudson Valley may be hysteria. witnesses that are employed to guard nuclear power stations, police officers that guard the community, military personal that are responsible for the welfare of the nation, airline pilots, school teachers, scientists accountants, attorneys, reporters, all these people suffering mass hysteria over a 4 year period. How silly of me, now I wish I had studied psychology, talk about a ready made client group, makes my wallet tremble just to think about it. I could afford that 1400 LT, buy a new stereo, get that washer for my wife, take those flying lessons, get Michael a new updated Websters......................N81N
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Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->129 of 133
Sub ->UFOs and Straw Men
To ->Michael Graham
From ->JIM SPEISER (#56)
Date ->09/16/88 01:26:58 AM
Hellooooooooo Boise.....
Mr. Graham, I've been reading with great interest your posts in the UFO debate section here. You seem to be a master debater -- verbally speaking.
Yet for all your elocutionary aplomb, you seem to be missing a few vital points. For example, you state that the "appearance of authenticity is insufficient." Insufficient for what? For proof? Certainly. To qualify as bearing discussion and inquiry? Hardly. Why do you and others insist on painting ufology into the corner of requiring absolute, undeniable proof before it can be taken seriously? Surely no one here is claiming to have proof that "UFOs are aliens and the government knows it." All we are saying is that, A) Anomalous data exists in the form of various reports which exhibit curious consistency, B) said data SUGGESTS intelligent control and/or government knowledge of the extraordinary nature of the phenomenon, C) insufficient prosaic explanations have been advanced to bring the data in line with the current scientific paradigm, D) the ET Hypothesis is sufficiently wondrous and substantial in its potential benefits to merit serious consideration; E) insufficient theoretical arguments have been advanced against said hypothesis. That's it. We do NOT say, "AND THEREFORE ITS ALIENS," as you repeatedly accuse Phil Imbrogno (and by extension, us) of saying. We do say, "AND THEREFORE, STOP LAUGHING AND HELP US FIND OUT WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON!"
None of this is to be construed as an entreatise to cease your skeptical input. On the contrary, ParaNet will not survive without such input, for that is our raison d'etre. But we do ask that such input be offered in an even-handed manner, that is, without the use of straw-man arguments such as your "and therefore its aliens," or your implication that we are claiming to have proved our case. Instead of bemoaning the proof we don't have, try addressing the data we do.
Jim Speiser
Alpha
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Sub ->Re: UFOs and Straw Men
To ->JIM SPEISER (#56)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/16/88 09:41:43 PM
Mr. Speiser,
The comments made, do not necessarily reflect my own beliefs at all. Don made a very good point in that some of the cases contain so much circumstantial evidence and corroborating testimony, were they a court case they might positively sway the jury; I shall ever and always take the opposite side, for without it there is, of course, no debate.
But....
The issue itself is of such an odd nature, such a potentially threatening one, so fantastic and unbelievable that the paracletes of UFO's must dig themselves out of a hole before they may start at the origin of the argument. Thus, rather than sit idle at the keyboard, watching the phosphor float by, I choose to gain knowledge by taking the opposite side of an argument with a gentleman I have really come to like.
And....
You will notice that I have succeeded. Although Don has a tendency towards tautology, and disdains response to difficult issues, resting instead on old, reliable arguments that he has heard from somewhere else, although he wont entertain certain ideas at all, he has given me grist for my mill. Maybe I've done the same for him.
Therefore....
I shall continue to address the data in the way that I feel has already shown itself to work in this context, mocking when I receive sneers, comforting when I sense irritation, discussing facts when I see facts, and so on. My purpose is not to discourage or demoralize, not even to laugh [although some of Don's quote-throwing has floored me!] but to continue the debate.
By the way....
In 1978, I had an encounter of my own, passing over the La Posa plain by car. The road I was on was posted the full length with signs instructing vehicles to remain on it. On either side were military testing sights. I don't suggest extraterrestrial origin either, but I've seen what kind of G's a human may take and yet survive; this wasn't within the parameters. So that when I suggest various explanations, I must include within the scope of the argument [remember the argument *is* the field of play, nothing from inside holds relevance outside.] myself.
However....
My objection to Night Siege remains, and if you are an extension, so be it. The damn thin' is packaged like a cheap whore, wrapped in sensationalism and depending on the ready preconceptions of the public: OVER 5000 SIGHTINGS IN THE LAST YEAR -- NIGHT SIEGE, The Hudson Valley UFO [in the same blown lettering as Night Siege] Sightings. On the back: Five thousand responsible people claim to have seen SOMETHING...WHAT IS GOING ON???? Of course, the usual filler hype included between the headlines. This is the sort of packaging that discredits the book even before it is picked up. Try a fanciful approach, like COMMUNION, and more of the people you feel should be reached shall be. All it takes is a little sub title, 'based on a true story,' and a list of 'additional reading' in the back.
Brd ->UFO Debate Forum
Numb ->131 of 133
Sub ->Re: UFOs and Straw Men
To ->JIM SPEISER (#56)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/16/88 09:43:39 PM
J.S. --
"All we are saying is that, A) Anomalous data exists in the form of various reports which exhibit curious consistency, B) said data SUGGESTS intelligent control and/or government knowledge of the extraordinary nature of the phenomenon, C) insufficient prosaic explanations have been advanced to bring the data in line with the current scientific paradigm, D) the ET Hypothesis is sufficiently wondrous and substantial in its potential benefits to merit serious consideration; E) insufficient theoretical arguments have been advanced against said hypothesis. That's it."
MG XII --
A. TRUE] Yes the data exists, such that some real event is acting as anlage. Whether the event is singular of plural is questionable, given other instances of a like profile which resolved themselves into a single incident after close examination, with more than verbal verification, or were observed to do so years later through examination of independent writings.
B. FALSE] Intelligent control has been ascribed by humans to confusing processes [weather, volcanos, electricity and magnetism] for as long as that little section of their brain has been developed. They also as a rule give human personalities to inanimate objects, and put their own thoughts into the heads of animals. The reason it is taken as false is because it is not at all clear whether the object is the source of the conclusion or the conclusion the source of the object. The observational data have no relevance to the assumption of governmental knowledge.
C. FALSE] Scientific explanation has been advanced on all the empirical data presented. No scientific explanation beyond hypothesis may be advanced upon witness testimony, as witness testimony is notoriously unreliable, and unduplicable. Give science a piece of metal to analyze, or a language to decipher or even recorded magnetic data. They'll change their tune.
D. FALSE] The ET Hypothesis bases itself first on [B.] which is false. It is, in fact, a wonderful idea. The potential benefit from ET civilizations is enormous. Equally enormous are the potential dangers, even if EBE's mean well. One major technological boon might plunge the society into chaos. The sociological implications are such that we would be more likely to be absorbed into their society, than they into ours. Remember the American Indian.
E. FALSE] That the explanations haven't sat well with the UFOoligists is true, but they're at least as valid as the counter hypotheses, and based on about as much evidence.K
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Numb ->132 of 133
Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
To ->DON F ECKER (#17)
From ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
Date ->09/16/88 09:46:34 PM
What ardently I wished, I long believed,
And, disappointed still, was still deceived.
By expectation everyday beguiled,
Dupe of to-morrow even from a child.
--Cowper
On the receipt of my mother's
Picture, lines 38-41.
Impossible is a word to be found only in the dictionary of Fools.
-- Napoleon Bonaparte
Impossible that it could be a form of hysteria? Don, I'm disappointed in you. Even after I gave you such a florid example, to receive this scathing objurgation is more than a gentleman may bear. Tsk, Tsk, then...I'LL weaken the Salem solution for you: You touched upon the merest edge of an idea when you mentioned 'religious fanatics....[with] no sense of humor.' Salem and outlying settlements were essentially theocracies. Everywhere people turned, every day, they were being told of demons and witches dancing in the forest with the Black Man. Forests were a source of terrible danger to the colonists, and much evil was imagined in their shadowed depths. Darkness which surrounded the colony on almost every side. There was no childhood for the children, they were expected to behave as adults. There was no enjoyment for the adults, beyond what they could find between the pages of the Bible, as other books were outside the bible and therefore evil, while pictures and music that did not praise the Lord, thereby blasphemed. Salem was a dry, pressured field of straw, waiting to go up. If not the witch hunts, then something else would have set the field alight. This is hardly the case for the scattered incidents of Night Siege.
Feel better? O.K., now I'll turn about and reply to that weakening in the following example: Some years ago, in a textile factory a woman was startled by a June Bug. Coincidentally, a rash appeared, the cause of which latter turned out to be at the woman's dwelling. But the rash really broke through the afternoon after the woman had fainted, and she became afraid and her body reacted to the stress, making her ill. Word got around of the 'deadly june bugs,' and soon people were developing rashes that had no origin other than their own minds, yet were evident on their arms, faces, legs and back after an encounter with one of the bugs. These were rational people [no pun intended], yet the rashes were quite real, caused entirely by their own imagination. The incident lasted a total of seven months, after which the only solution was to spray the place and rid it of the harmless beetles.
Don, I've hypnotized people and, out of mere curiosity, told them that a pencil they were holding was becoming red-hot, yet that they would not find themselves able to let go. Two of the five I've done this to developed water blisters, just as if they'd held a real hot piece of metal between thumb and forefinger.
My point is that senses are unreliable, no matter how many different sets corroborate witnessed events. Your body is a mechanism that needs only the proper fiddling of knobs to elicit any response desired, within its capability. Give me an electrode, I'll let you relive a portion of your childhood. Give me another, I'll make you afraid of your own shadow. Give me your mind, and I shall make your world go away. K
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Numb ->133 of 133
Sub ->Re: "Ducks & Saucers & Spheres"
To ->MICHAEL GRAHAM (#107)
From ->DON F ECKER (#17)
Date ->09/16/88 11:43:38 PM
"Friendship's the privilege
Of private men, for wretched greatness knows
No blessing so substantial."
Tate
"Man is the only creature endowed with
the power of laughter; is he not the only
one that deserves to be laughed at?"
Greville
Michael, I must say I am very DISAPPOINTED in your last response. I thought for sure, you would have caught me with tongue firmly in cheek concerning Salem. The gibe about Salems humor to be specific. I didn't miss the point about Salem, I merely dismissed it. Several messages ago, you gave yourself away, when you mentioned your knowledge concerning the incident in Roswell.
I too have greatly enjoyed this debate, However; Tsk Tsk, I take you to task concerning your remark to J. Speiser concerning my reluctance to debate difficult issues. Not true Mon Ami. (Did I get that right?) Imagine accusing ME of practicing Tautology! And, besides, if the OLD RELIABLE ARGUMENTS work, well, what could I possibly say?
Now, what ideas do you accuse me of NOT entertaining? Michael, I consider myself to be one of the MOST open minded people I know, and if anyone disagrees, well then, damnit, let's burn his damn hut down!!!!!!! OOOOPS, sorry, got carried away. Oh, yes, I almost forgot. Forget it if you think you are going to get close to me with an electrode, and if I am not mistaken, my ex. stated on several occasions that I had no mind! Of course, I debated that with her, and after all, she did sign the house over to me with no money changing hands. ( And to think she accused me of being a spendthrift.)
But, to get back to the debate, I submit to you, Michael, there is a large difference between a group of people imagining a rash from a beetle, and an object described by thousands as being several hundred feet in length. You mentioned a factory town, which I must then assume that the educational level must have been low, possibly ridden with superstition, and easily influenced. Quite a difference from college graduates holding responsible positions, school teachers, police, military officers, and the like. I further submit that quite simply, IT WON"T
WASH BUCKWHEAT.81N
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[B16 #133 of 133] ? for more cmds or Cmd [N]#
demons and witches dancing in the forest with the Black Man. Forests were a source of terrible danger to the colonists, and much evil was imagined in their shadowed depths. Darkness which surrounded the colony on almost every side. There was no childhood for the children, they were expected to behave as adults. There was no enjoyment for the adults, beyond what they could find between the pages of the Bible, as other books were outside the bible and therefore evil, while pictures and music that did not praise the Lord, thereby blasphemed. Salem was a dry, pressured field of straw, waiting to go up. If not the witch hunts, then something else would have set the field alight. This is hardly the case for the scattered incidents of Night Siege.
Feel better? O.K., now I'll turn about and reply to that weakening in the following example: Some years ago, in a textile factory a woman was startled by a June Bug. Coinfidentall
