Atari ST RoundTable Real Time Conference (Monday, Jan. 24, 1994)
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Atari ST RoundTable
Real Time Conference
Monday, Jan. 24, 1994
CD ROM for the Atari Computer!
==============================
with
CD ROM Developers
Greg Kopchak, Roger Burrows, Brian Grier
Special Guests
David Troy, Damien Jones, S.Fardishgh
Host - Lou Rocha
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Our guests tonight are Greg Kopchak from It's All Relative, David Troy from Toad Computers and Roger Burrows, from Anodyne Software.
Our topic is CD ROM for the Atari and we look forward to hearing about the latest developments for our platform. The crowd is small right now, so if you have a question or comment please /raise your hand.
I am going to ask our main guest, Greg Kopchak, to upload his opening comments. GA Greg.
<GREG> I'd like to post a few things about Photo Show Pro supports Kodak Photo CD on the Atari Falcon 030 and allows the user to create scripted slide shows and presentations that make maximum use of the built in hardware capabilities of the Falcon 030. Photo Show Pro has twenty different fades and disolves when creating scripts, allows overlay of text on graphics in your choice of system colors, screen fades to black or white, inverse colors, and image overlays. Photo Show scripts can be created directly from CD using the Kodak Photo CD PCD format or created from disk using the FTC 16 bit true color format. All effects are super smooth, even when running under MultiTOS.
Digitized sound files in AVR format can scripted along with graphics allowing the user to add commentary, sound effects, or background music to their presentations.
For creating titles, Photo Show Pro displays 24-bit BMP files in the Microsoft Windows bitmap format.
Photo Show Pro can be used with VGA, RGB (Atari monitor), and standard broadcast televisions. Slide shows and presentations can be recorded to VCR using either RF output or the higher quality composite output of the Falcon 030.
Full 16 bit color with correct aspect ratios are displayed on all monitor types except monochrome.
Photo Show Pro will auto show your Kodak Photo CD graphics using 16 different effects directly from your Photo CD discs. A special Corel mode allows the same auto shows using the Corel series of Photo CD images. Corel is planning to release over 100 theme discs of Kodak Photo CD graphics with each disc containing 100 images. Conversions can be made to 16-bit FTC, 24-bit TIF, 24-bit EPS, and 24-bit RAW formats from Kodak Photo CD's PCD format. Image conversions can be done in pixel resolutions of 192 by 128 up to 3072 by 2048.
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Thanks Greg. I didn't realize you were an old pro at RTC uploads :-) Our next comment comes from Brian Grier. Go Ahead, Brian.
<[Brian] B.GRIER> I really would like to make an announcement. I have created a program to allow Atari users to access Compton's New Media CD-Roms on Atari computers.
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Brian, can you tell us a little more about it?
<[Brian] B.GRIER> Please excuse my typing as this is my first RTC.
<[HoST] ST.LOU> You're doing EXCELLENT.
<[Brian] B.GRIER> My program accesses Compton's M.O.S.T discs. It currently works with the "Book of Home Remedies", "The King James Bible", and the "CIA/KGB information book" I would like to say it works with more but I have to buy more CD-Roms to be sure.
Everything works pretty much as the windows(tm) version. You are allowed to have as many open sections as you want, and can display pictures, and play audio (STe/TT only right now).
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Sounds great! What CD ROM are you using and what is M.O.S.T.? Does your PRG work with MultiTOS, Brian?
<[Brian] B.GRIER> That's about it. Except if this goes well I'll be making a version for Compton's Multi-Media encyclopedia. M.O.S.T. is Multiple Operating System Technology.
<[HoST] ST.LOU> What CD are you using, Brian? Does your program run under MulitTOS?
<[Brian] B.GRIER> If you mean drive I have a Chinon 431 (from TOAD) and an NEC-85
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Let's move on to Lorne White.
<[Lorne] L.WHITE17> Thanks, As a would be developer, I would like to know more about getting into a CD ROM type application development..
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Greg, would you like to answer Lorne's question?
<GREG> Once you get your application running on the very big hard disk you can approach one of the many CD publishers about getting a master done. The big problem has been the minimums required by most publishers and pressers.
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Lorne, any followup?
<[Lorne] L.WHITE17> Yes please. I've always presumed that the shell program that drives the application could be tricky since it's very much set up for the other platform. True of False.
<GREG> False. A CD looks like a VERY BIG hard disc to the OS
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Anything else, Lorne?
<[Lorne] L.WHITE17> But doesn't the interface have to be consistent across platforms ??
<GREG> The CD can be a Mac CD, A PC CD. An Atari CD or cross- platform. You decide what you want it to run on. The media itself is very much cross-platform.
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Greg, you mentioned minimums for pressing CD's but I thought PHOTO CD was economically feasible? How does one get PHOTO CD's done?
<GREG> All you do is take a roll of film to Walmart and tell them PCD please. Getting multiple copies pressed is not the same as making a one-of disc.
<JOHN.KING.T> I am about to get a CDROM drive for my TT. Is a Double Speed unit fast "enuf" or should I consider a triple or quad unit? This unit would be SCSI and might be a dual use unit with my PC laptop for tax data research. GA
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Maybe David Troy would like to handle that one.
<[Dave Troy] TOAD-SERV.> Sure... The double speed drives are pretty quick. Triple speed is even better though [450K/sec vs. 300K/sec & 150 with single speed.
<JOHN.KING.T> Price is not a problem. Are the faster units worth the extra price?
<[Dave Troy] TOAD-SERV.> I would say that with the new technology coming out, and if you don't mind spending the extra bucks (approximately $100-$150), it might be a wise choice. Things are always going to need to be faster, wider, lower, longer, etc. :) And we sell double and triple speed NEC units at decent prices.
<JOHN.KING.T> That is cheap for the extra speed. Thanks for the suggestions.
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Roger Burrows would like to add to Dave's answer...
<[Roger] R.BURROWS1> Yes ... I agree with Dave. If you can afford it, go for the fastest. But I think the speed difference from single to double is enough for most of us poorer folks.
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Roger, I know you are working on ExtenDOS. What speed units have you tested ?
<[Roger] R.BURROWS1> So far, single and double. Tintin is looking at a triplespeed, so I may get to test on that soon .
<[Dave Troy] TOAD-SERV.> I think that that is very fair... Double speed is pretty nice, but triple is maybe a little more future oriented. I am tickled pink with the double speed drive myself. :)
I am used to the old 150K/sec 380ms crawlers. 200ms with 300K/sec seems like a speed demon. <ga>
<[HoST] ST.LOU> I'll take that crawler off your hands :-)
<[Dave Troy] TOAD-SERV.> I got plenty of 'em... :)
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Next we have Sean Dougherty from Two Worlds Publishing.
<[Sean@TWP] P-DIRECT> Right now, the uses of CD-ROM seem fairly limited to the home user. Could one of you go over a few of the more exciting practical things one can do with CD-ROM, just to help convince people they need one? (this isn't prompted, I swear!) GA
<GREG> DTP is a compelling reason. I have a CD with a couple hundred meg of clip art. Corel has several thousand images available now with more planned. The new Gemini CD has fonts ready to go. Animations like FLI are fun to view. Photo CD brings your images home and makes them personal.
<[Dave Troy] TOAD-SERV.> The secret to CD-ROM on the Atari is finding applications which are not platform specific, as Greg said. CD-ROM is very much a data storage medium and just as your hard drive holds data files that your favorite programs can use, so can a CD ROM. The only catch is that you don't get to write to the CD ROM yourself, the way you can with a hard drive. So you are challenged to find CD TOAD-SERV. ROM's that already have data that your programme actually use. I think that Photo CD is a very exciting technology for CD-ROM on the Atari, as well as the potential for clip art, fonts, sound files (.WAV on Falcon!!), the new Atari GEMINI CD ROM.
There are also lots of CD ROMS available with graphic images in GIF format, soon JPG. format will become prevalent (are the corel's JPG?) and the encyclopedia for the Compton's stuff from Brian. Pretty exciting stuff. [ga]
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Mike Fulton is here and I know there was supposed to be a CD DEV pack. Mike, can you comment?
<MIKE-FULTON> Well, as you said, I have been working on an Atari Developer CDROM for several months now. Unfortunately, the collecting of software and other files (shareware and PD stuff) is the least of the whole project. One of the big bottlenecks has been the editing and rewriting of Atari's developer documentation. I've been working on putting it all (or as much as possible) into an online-readable format. And this involves updating old documentation, and a _lot_ of editing. It's taken a lot longer than I originally anticipated. It's not hard, per se, just time consuming. But it's coming along nicely and I do hope to have it done soon. In a lot of ways, it would be a lot easier to write a program to display and otherwise deal with an existing database (like some of the online encyclopedias and so forth).
<[HoST] ST.LOU> From what I saw at Las Vegas Comdex, these DEV CD's have arrived in force. Good luck getting finished, Mike. Rob Sattler is next...
<[Rob] R.SATTLER> Hello everyone, this is some great stuff! Q- Can you get by without MultiTOS?
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Rob, I will let Roger Burrows answer that one.
<[Roger] R.BURROWS1> Yes, you can ... that's what ExtenDOS does.
It's designed for those people who don't need all the function of MultiTOS and/or have maybe a small hardware config. It's pretty straight forward to use, and works with pretty much any drive.
<[HoST] ST.LOU> What about Falcon and PHOTO CD support, Roger?
<[Roger] R.BURROWS1> Falcon support is on its way, I hope by the weekend. Photo CD is in the plans ... I only just got a pCD drive to test with.
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Mike Allen is next.
<MIKE-ALLEN> First let me say that the developments from Roger and Brian are exciting! These apps for the Falcon are all very nice, but how about us non-Falcon types? What I'd like to know is can I use a CD on my MSTe with an older ICD HA (pre AdSCSI). Would I only be able to read files, etc or is there some way I can look at photo-cds too?
<GREG> Not Yet Mike. The Photo Cd process looks best with lots of color. We have samples of Photo CD to SPC up on GEnie. They were done with DMJ-GIF You can convert a PCD to other formats. You see it best in true color. Studio Photo will run on an ST. All you need is for Roger to make a PCD driver for you.
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Roger, is there anyway to use ExtenDOS with the ICD HA setup? Dave, do you have any configs for Mike?
<[Dave Troy] TOAD-SERV.> You can attach a CD ROM drive to an ICD host but I don't know about the pre-AdSCSI models. ICD's Link & Pro utilities comes with a DMA 0-7 CD ROM driver for Metados.
<[Roger] R.BURROWS1> ExtenDOS on the ST needs an ICD AdSCSI or equivalent.
<[Rob] R.SATTLER> Is Extendos available now? How much?
<[Roger] R.BURROWS1> Yes, available now, currently direct mail from me, hopefully soon at your friendly Atari mail-order dealer. Re price: $19.95 including everything (US$ in US, Cdn$ in Canada) Ontario residents, add sales tax (sorry).
<[Dave Troy] TOAD-SERV.> Toad Computers will be talking to Roger about ExtenDOS. :)
<[Tintin] C.LABELLE> I noticed TOAD advertises NEC 3xp. Have they been tested with Falcon and XFS?
<[Dave Troy] TOAD-SERV.> Yes, but right now MultiSession support won't work with the NEC drives. They DO support single session Photo CD's with the XFS driver. The problem is not, of course, in the drive. They are fully multisession. The XFS driver, however, doesn't understand NEC multisession right now. The only drive that the XFS driver works with in multisession is the Toshiba 3401, which is a double speed drive and can be expensive. I know that Greg @ It's all relative is working on modifying the driver to support multisession on a wider variety of drives, especially the NEC. So all this means is that you would be restricted, right now, to Photo CD's with only one directory (development cycle) right now, but this is changing quickly. And of course all other CD's work fine.
<[Tintin] C.LABELLE> OK so this denies earlier reports that the 3xp were not working with Falcon.
<[Dave Troy] TOAD-SERV.> I have not had problems, but it does seem to be very driver related. There are many drivers out there, even among XFS varieties (2 or 3 versions).
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Next we have Charles Smeton of NewSTar Technology
<C.S.SMETON> I wanted to ask about ExtendDOS and the Falcon, but this was already answered. So I will ask a bit about how ExtendDOS works, i.e. how is it installed, how does it differ from MetaDOS, etc.
<[Roger] R.BURROWS1> OK, well the basic idea is exactly the same as MetaDOS, that is, there's a supervisor (ExtenDOS) that traps the necessary system calls then there are drivers that deal with hardware and file systems. I have another driver written right now, and am working on still others. If they work out, they may be of more limited interest than the CD-ROM.
<C.S.SMETON> Do you need any Falcon beta testers? ;-)
<[Roger] R.BURROWS1> It depends :-) probably not, I have a volunteer in the Ottawa area, and believe me it's tough debugging hardware-level code over the phone!
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Thanks Roger and Charles. Our next question comes from Mario Georgiou at DMC Publishing.
<[mario] DMCPUBLISH> Hello all, I would like to know what formats are currently supported and whether you plan to support CDI and the new Pro PCD.
<GREG> We will have Portfolio format this summer. I just got a mailing from Kodak last week on the update. The PRO format is tough. Files are 64 meg uncompressed. This is what you call BIG.
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Whew!
<GREG> The Portfolio format will have many discs published for it.
<[Dave Troy] TOAD-SERV.> That's where you need more memory for the falcon... 14MB gets tight.
<[mario] DMCPUBLISH> Big but needed, I look forward to replacing my MetaDOS ... Good luck
<[Nima Montase] S.FARSHIDGH> Well, it's been about 30 mins now, but I was just going to add thatI was just going to add that you can also use Audio CDs on your system, as another reason to buy a CDROM!
<[Dave Troy] TOAD-SERV.> Oh yeah - you can.. Good point. Lots of PD players are available.
<[HoST] ST.LOU> I would like to hear more specs, Nima.
<[Nima Montase] S.FARSHIDGH> Well, right now you can play AUDIO CDs on all ATARI systems (did the Falcon one
<[HoST] ST.LOU> What is your software?
** <[Nima Montase] S.FARSHIDGH> ** disconnected
<GREG> Nima is the author of CD_AUD20 available as shareware here on GEnie. He is working on a Falcon CD audio player too but work is proceeding slowly as he doesn't have a test system. Watch for something in the next couple of weeks though. And if you are using his CD player, send in the registration.
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Nima is back. Do you have more to comment, Nima?
<S.FARSHIDGH> As I was saying, (Greg, did the Falcon AUD CD work fine?)
<GREG> NOT yet
<S.FARSHIDGH> Anyways, the Audio CD supports all ATARI ST/TTs now, it has play, stop, pause, track with the option of playing random/programmable tracks, fast forward and rewind, eject, and also the capability of taking external data files (which is fully configurable) for any non SCSI II compliant CD ROMs. It should work fine on any CDROM that supports the SCSI II commands, I have also include a almost fully functional data file for NEC drives (older ones, the SCSI II not compliant ones), I am just waiting for some users' feedback!
<[Dave Troy] TOAD-SERV.> Does the CD audio spec allow for playing digital data backwards, or do you always have to play forward from a fixed point on the disk?
<S.FARSHIDGH> Yes, you can go back and forth either by passing along which track # you want or using the up and down option which moves the song up or down!
<[Dr. Bob] W.PARKS3> First, I'd like to thank Charles for so accurately asking _MY_ question. <grin> Where can one find out more about ExtenDOS? I don't dislike MultiTos but I'd rather not have to add another level between the OS and a CD? Does it support a variety of CD-ROMS? etc.
<[Roger] R.BURROWS1> I posted a notice in one of the conferences recently. Yes, ExtenDOS should support any SCSI CD-ROM drive. It's available mail-order direct from me, or hopefully soon from TOAD.
<[Dr. Bob] W.PARKS3> Ok. The price is very nice - that doesn't bother me. What concerns me is when I start scratching my head wondering why the CDROM won't work or what. Does it have some technical documentation?
<[Roger] R.BURROWS1> It comes with a manual, and I think it covers everything you need and I'm available by phone or via GEnie if that doesn't do it.
<[Dr. Bob] W.PARKS3> Ok, thanks- sounds good! <we now return you to...>
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Thanks Roger and Doc. Rob Sattler has our last question.
<[Rob] R.SATTLER> I'm a Falcon user and own a Toshiba 3401b, but I can't seem to get it to handle a driver properly. I understand Atari has a driver, how can I get it? Also, what would be better to use? AHDI, or ICD-Pro bootware?
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Who wants it?
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Everyone does :-) OK, one at a time. Mike Fulton...
<MIKE-FULTON> The CDROM driver is independent of the hard disk software. Therefore, it doesn't really matter if you use Atari's hard disk driver or ICD's. Theoretically, a CDROM driver could link in with a hard disk driver, but that's not the way that the MetaDOS or MiNT XFS drivers work.
<[HoST] ST.LOU> GREG is next, then Roger then Brian.
<[Rob] R.SATTLER> OK, but you do need either extendos or multitos?
<GREG> The version of the XFS driver we ship will all our Photo CD products is the most current XFS for MultiTOS and works quite well with all our suggested drives.
<[Roger] R.BURROWS1> Basically, you need ExtenDOS or MultiTOS ...
At the moment, ExtenDOS doesn't handle Falcon ... But that should be fixed in a week.
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Brian, anything to add?
<[Brian] B.GRIER> According to howard at ICD they are having problems with Atari's CD-ROM XFS driver and their software on the Falcon.
If you need a CD-Rom driver that works with ALL Atari computers, but does not yet support Photo-CD you'll probably need ExtenDOS or my CD ROM XFS driver that's works on all computers (I wrote it because last year I couldn't find a driver that worked on the SCSI port of my TT :( <ga>
<[Dave Troy] TOAD-SERV.> We have not had a problem using ICD Pro & the Atari XFS?
<GREG> ICD is shipping an older version
<[Dave Troy] TOAD-SERV.> It seems to work fine.
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Dave, thank you for coming tonight. Would you like to make any closing comments?
<[Dave Troy] TOAD-SERV.> Just to thank everyone for their interest in CD ROM. It's a new and exciting technology, and I hope that everyone gets involved with it so we can build the critical mass necessary to get some apps together. The Gemini CD ROM is selling great! I think that's a good sign. Thanks again. <ga>
<[HoST] ST.LOU> You're welcome. Greg Kopchak, thank you for organizing the group and getting everyone here tonight. Any closing comments?
<GREG> Thanks goes to Rene Guimont and Rene Tremblay for providing the Gemini CD. As the conference was on tonight I got an Airborne package from our German publisher, totronic. Watch for an announcement shortly.
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Sounds exciting.
<GREG> I would also like to post some info on the Gemini CD.
Walnut Creek CDROM announces the release of the GEMini CDROM for Atari Computers. The CDROM contains 616 MB, and 2872 public domain programs, shareware programs and commercial demos for the Atari ST, TT, and Falcon Computers plus a section for the Portfolio palmtop computer. It also contains text and graphics for the Lynx and Jaguar video game systems.
The GEMini CDROM is set up in a logical tree structure which simplifies searching for and running the programs. You can find files in areas such as accessories, archives, astronomy, database, fonts, games, GNU, programming, screen savers, virus , text editors, utilities, etc.
It includes 50 megabytes of games and entertainment software. For the desktop publisher, it contains 15 megabytes of fonts. Many programs include source code. All programs may be run directly from the CDROM so there is no need to decompress onto the hard drive in order to use the files. Each directory contains an index and a list of files to make it easier for a user to locate a file.
<[HoST] ST.LOU> Greg, thanks again to you and your guests. Mike Fulton, Roger Burrows, Brian Grier, S.Fardishgh, Dave Troy, Damien Jones. We really appreciate the time and are keenly interested in this new era for our Atari Computers. Good night.
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The Atari ST RoundTable hosts real time conferences on Sunday (HelpDesk) at 9:00 p.m. EST, Monday (DTP/Graphics) and Wednesday (Open House) at 10:00 p.m. each week.
Additional conferences include the Programming RTC on the first and third Thursday of each month at 9:00 p.m. EST and Dateline Atari with Bob Brodie on the first Friday of the month at 10:00 p.m. EST.
All formal conferences with guest speakers have formally recorded transcripts available for download in Library 13.
