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Impulse Reality 142
s$
.d""b. impulse reality press no. 142
[-- $$ $$ $$ -- ------------------------------------------------------ --]
$$ $$ "Total Fucking Buddhist, Man!"
$$ $$ written by linear & mogel
$$ $$ released 9/7/01
[-- $$ $$ ------ ------------------------------------------------------ --]
$$ $$
I recently came across this log file while searching for some worth
while IR submissions I had lost. I had this conversation with mogel (of HOE
Ezine fame) shortly after reading his (brief) explaination of early Buddhism
history and philosophy. If you would like to check the original text out,
visit http://www.hoe.nu/mogel/buddhism.txt
This log is incredibly long, and I am publishing it with out consent
from mogel, because he sucks. It should be noted that this is a very
simplified explaination of ideas, so idiots like me can understand. I'm not
sure when this took place, but I would estimate 6 months ago. This file is
part one in a two part series. Part two is another conversation I had with
mogel about his text, which took place I would guess 3 months after this one.
-oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo-
its linear: Hey asshole!
I am Mogel: eventually that's going to become your god damn catch phrase.
its linear: say one wanted to become buddhist... what things should he know/
have read/ etc. ?
I am Mogel: I DON'T know what to recommend you read
I am Mogel: i don't actually go around reading books -about- the religion i
often go to thr original texts
I am Mogel: for that, i'd recommend a book ABOUT the lotus sutra
its linear: how many sutras are there?
I am Mogel: there are several
I am Mogel: probably 6-7
I am Mogel: i don't know all the names or the exact number, since it's
debatable anyway
I am Mogel: the basic gist of the sutras is that Siddhartha travelled a lot
I am Mogel: and with each group of monks he travelled with he gave them
different emphasis on ideas, because (A) he tried to gear the way he spoke
to the listeners education and ability (B) he was learning new things as he
grew older
I am Mogel: so when the monks jammed together 100 years after his death the
oral teachings of buddha had some dispute
I am Mogel: so several different clans of monks made different "collections"/
sutras
I am Mogel: the lotus sutra was recognized by some sects (including the one i
practice) as the most emcompassing one, because it touches on the most
ideas, focusses on one of the most important ideas (to them, anyway!), and
it was written near his death
its linear: i see
I am Mogel: another famous one is th Diamond Sutra, which is what is embraced
by Zen
its linear: what sect are you "in"
I am Mogel: Soka Gakkai
I am Mogel: japanese-based
its linear: i see. I have this vietnimese friend whose mom practices
Buddhism. But she worships this god (a few of them, actually)... It was to
my understanding that there wasn't really any "gods" worshipped in buddhism;
is this just some sect's spin on it?
I am Mogel: well, here's the ting
I am Mogel: part of the nature of buddhism is to evolve
I am Mogel: but the culture of india wouldn't allow for it
I am Mogel: so the evolutionary ideas moved elsewehere, mostly china
I am Mogel: but people still practiced in india
I am Mogel: and THAT buddhism became more and more conservative, influenced
by hindu
I am Mogel: that was one that spread to some countries, like Tibet and such
I am Mogel: in hindu there's 2398213 gods for everything
I am Mogel: anyhow,
I am Mogel: evenn of those people, MOST of them wouldn't really say that
they're GODS if you pinned them down and gave them the 3rd degree
I am Mogel: the "buddhist gods" are just qualities of the universe that we're
not really sure about
I am Mogel: so we observe them and give those "forces" or qualities names
I am Mogel: and those names get turned into something "magic" by...ahem...
simple minds
I am Mogel: but i don't believe any such thing
I am Mogel: nothing in buddhism is magical or super-human
I am Mogel: or beyond nature
I am Mogel: basically because of india's culture (and some other reasons,
maybe), buddhism split into two huge categories
I am Mogel: OLD SCHOOL and NEW SCHOOL
I am Mogel: oldschool is hinayana, which is practicing entirely for your own
enlightenment
I am Mogel: and has many more RITUALISTIC things
its linear: so mahayana is new school.
I am Mogel: right
its linear: what would you classify yourself as?
I am Mogel: i'm definately mahayana
its linear: is nirvana a buddhist thing, or what that adopted from hindu?
I am Mogel: nirvana is entirely a buddhist concept
I am Mogel: enlightenment is not something that can be simply stated in a
nice simple package
its linear: and Kurt Kobain started that, right? EHEHEHE OH GOD I'M FUNNY!@$#
I am Mogel: ahaha
I am Mogel: it's coBRAIN
I am Mogel: cause he splattered his BRAINS against the wall!!!!
I am Mogel: ahahah!!!H!!!111
I am Mogel: anyway
its linear: yeah, anyway. sorry.
I am Mogel: some of the original buddhist ideas are adapted terms from hindu,
like karma
I am Mogel: nirva isn't what my sect is into, but i can explain the idea
I am Mogel: it's more important, in my view, to recognize the idea than to
try to live it
I am Mogel: basically it's the pursuit of ultimate Understanding that We Are
Nothing
I am Mogel: and that Nothing has a capital because it's not actually a
-negative- idea
I am Mogel: true nothing has no qualities
I am Mogel: so you can't say it's good or bad
I am Mogel: because that's defining it
I am Mogel: it's a hard concept to wrap your head around
its linear: but even saying "nothing" is defining it, ehehe
I am Mogel: right, exactly
I am Mogel: by nature of using words we are limited
I am Mogel: thus the Zen question,
I am Mogel: "Does the wise man speak?"
its linear: then he says "no," so you punch him in the face, and call him
stupid.
I am Mogel: ahaha
I am Mogel: right
I am Mogel: you got it
I am Mogel: anyway, some of this is mental masturbation, which is why i think
it shouldn't be the -ultimate- pursuit of buddhism
I am Mogel: i mean, it's clever to realize that eevrything can actually be
denied, disproved, contradicted, and that the Truth is that there is no
truth, etc etc
I am Mogel: but it's also somewhat worthless
I am Mogel: because our life is short
I am Mogel: and it's a much more noble goal to try to be happy
I am Mogel: SO, i think nirvana is just one step towards happiness
I am Mogel: something you realize and then synthesize into something bigger
I am Mogel: rather than reveling in it
I am Mogel: and becoming some dork that speaks koan riddles all day to
himself
its linear: Got it. About samsara - i can easily understand the hindu belief,
because the "soul" stays the same as it goes through the samsara cycle...
but since the buddhism belief is that there is no "soul"... how can the
Karma one has be carried within the cycle?
its linear: (yikes, i hope that made sense)
I am Mogel: that made sense
I am Mogel: if there's no self, how can there be a cycle?
I am Mogel: i.e. there'd be nothing to cycle
its linear: exactly
I am Mogel: that's a classic debate question that the oldschool buddhists
tried to to pull on the new school
I am Mogel: which is what helped define the new school further
I am Mogel: basically the solution is this:
I am Mogel: there is no ULTIMATE self
I am Mogel: there are only patterns
I am Mogel: those patterns last for some time, but not forever
I am Mogel: because they are constantly changing
I am Mogel: so, when we say our Karma follows us from lifetime to lifetime
I am Mogel: it's not completely "US"
I am Mogel: because the very US itself is questionable
I am Mogel: it's the pattern that is us
its linear: okay, i understand that
I am Mogel: karma is extremely complicated
I am Mogel: because EVERY SINGLE GOSH DARN CAUSE
I am Mogel: the speed and volum at which you type
I am Mogel: the time it takes you online
I am Mogel: the speed you read
I am Mogel: every little fucking thing is a cause
I am Mogel: and they all add up in these subtle ways
I am Mogel: every second has a bazillion causes
I am Mogel: so trying to understand it all would take a god damn genius
I am Mogel: and it works on social levels
I am Mogel: nature levels
I am Mogel: bioelectrical levels
I am Mogel: everything
I am Mogel: #@!!@
I am Mogel: and, as you read, we are always changing
I am Mogel: we're reading each other's sentences and our brain, even if it's
in some subtle way, is having a -vaguely- new thought
I am Mogel: (at least)
I am Mogel: even if it's becoming slightly more Jaded
I am Mogel: so no moment is ever the same as the last
I am Mogel: etc!!!!
its linear: Sheesh, a lot to take in.
I am Mogel: ahaha
I am Mogel: sorry
I am Mogel: i'm very energetic about this topic
I am Mogel: because it's one of the few things i am sincere about
I am Mogel: in my life full of sarcasm
its linear: you should just write a book named "Mogel's Crappy Guide to
Buddhism For linear"
its linear: Anyway, i'm seriously considering becoming a practicing buddhist,
i just don't know that much about it and don't know where all to start
I am Mogel: well, i could hiook you up with info on Soka Gakkai in your area,
if you want
I am Mogel: just gimme your town's name again
I am Mogel: Soka Gakkai has like 20 million people worldwide
I am Mogel: and is in like 150 countries
I am Mogel: so it's not a particularly small sect
I am Mogel: i mean, smaller than Tibet or Zen
I am Mogel: (which themselves have smaller sects, since those are just Types
and not sects)
I am Mogel: like the difference between oatmeal and QUAKER OATS
its linear: My town is Upland, CA by the way
I am Mogel: i'll have to tell more about SGI (Soka Gakkai International) on a
conf or something
I am Mogel: anyway
I am Mogel: for some people, the hardest pill to swallow in buddhism is
reincarnation
its linear: hrm... it's not _that_ hard for me... now that you've explained
how our self "patterns" work
I am Mogel: right
I am Mogel: well, forst off, in my mind, you don't even -need- to believe in
reincarnaion per se for buddhism to make sense
I am Mogel: i just think that reincarnation is logical ectention of karma
I am Mogel: i mean
I am Mogel: people being born into crappy fucking lives "just becuase"
doesn't make sense in a world of causes
I am Mogel: there must be a cause that put someone where they are
I am Mogel: now, the nature of "soul" is up for debate
I am Mogel: and it _is_ debated in buddhism
I am Mogel: there's differented theories about what exactly IS reincarnated
I am Mogel: i don't think it's necessary to fixate on this stuff, though
I am Mogel: because the net result of Life Experience is still the same
I am Mogel: i.e. we still gotta deal with what we've got
I am Mogel: buddhism often has 2-3 answers to everything
I am Mogel: i mean, the same idea
I am Mogel: but there's a short version and a ridulously long one
I am Mogel: it's very down to earth in some ways, because it takes life as
very minimal properties
I am Mogel: that is, collections of causes
I am Mogel: feel free to stop me anytime!!
its linear: no no, if you have more to say, by all means keep going - it's
all very fascinating. Is there any specific book about the Lotus Sutra you'd
recommend?
I am Mogel: i could ask a friend, but i learned it the good ol' fashioned way
I am Mogel: of course, i was born into it,
I am Mogel: so it's hard for me to relate to someone who is an outsider
I am Mogel: since these ideas were taught to me at such a young age
I am Mogel: (not in such an intellectual way, though)
I am Mogel: i was actually not into buddhism in any serious way until i
turned 18
I am Mogel: Okee. What is Dharma?
I am Mogel: gotta pee, brb
I am Mogel: yo
I am Mogel: yess
I am Mogel: dharma is a Big term but it's actually pretty vague and has many
uses
I am Mogel: in GENERAL it refers to 'the mystic law', which is the basic
phenomena/force of nature we, as humans, don't have the ability to
understand
I am Mogel: however, we CAN observe properties of dharma
I am Mogel: one of the most fundamental Laws is "cause and effect"
I am Mogel: which is the basic logical premise for much of buddhism
I am Mogel: so, dharma can also refer to the specific manifestations of karma
I am Mogel: it's not actually used that commonly in mahayana, the term,
because it's a little redundant
I am Mogel: some say that BUDDHISM SEZ that there are no truths in the
universe AT ALL except "cause and effect"
its linear: So some don't believe that the Four Noble Truths are truths?
I am Mogel: well, they're called "noble" truths because it's based on
convential logic
I am Mogel: they're not truths in the same sense as The Mytsic Law, but they
are logical extensions of it
I am Mogel: you can see where these ideas lead some people, though
I am Mogel: one logical way to go about this is to say "OK i'll become a monk
and rid myself of these materialist capitalist pigs!! because then i'll be
truly happy!!! i won't WANT stuff anymore!!"
I am Mogel: and that kind of thinking leads to many buddhism, like Zen
I am Mogel: the denial of everything
I am Mogel: zen is kinda riduclous as a practice, but it's interesting to
study
its linear: Zen is all the guys going around talking to themselves in koan
koan riddles and stuff, right?
I am Mogel: ahaha, well, that's the little joke
I am Mogel: actually zen is hardcore-sit-slone-stare-at-the-wall meditation
I am Mogel: where you're suppose to reach enlightenment simply by thinking
about it
I am Mogel: alone
its linear: you're not into meditation much, eh?
I am Mogel: i'm into a certain type of meditation that's more active, simple,
and directed
I am Mogel: see, basically
I am Mogel: i think a more enlightened and realistic way to go about this
stuff has to do with Awareness
I am Mogel: a major thing about buddhism is that you won't find happiness
through extremes
I am Mogel: the truth often lies in the middle
I am Mogel: denial of ALL/SELF seems too much for me
I am Mogel: it's almost nihilistic
I am Mogel: i believe that you should be AWARE of the fact that life is
relative, impermanent, superficial, etc etc
I am Mogel: AND you should incorporate that awareness into your actions and
conciousness
I am Mogel: but you can't completely get rid of it
its linear: and abolishing materialism around you won't rid yourself of
desire anyway!!#@
I am Mogel: right
I am Mogel: also
I am Mogel: it's extreme to say that *all* materialism is wrong
I am Mogel: besides, some desires are good
I am Mogel: without *any* desire we'd have no will to live
its linear: ...and then you wouldn't be happy!
I am Mogel: which brings me to my next point---
I am Mogel: buddhism may build rules about how the universe works, but it
never says one *must* follow them
I am Mogel: like, with the 4 noble truths
I am Mogel: it says to Rid One of Desire is to End Suffering
I am Mogel: but it doesn't say YOU MUST RID IT and certainly doesn't say IN
ALL CASES
I am Mogel: AND!!!!
its linear: "Thou shalt not desire!" ehehe.
I am Mogel: in the lotus sutra, the most important of all, is the lotus
flower's symbolic meaning
I am Mogel: see, the lotus flower is a beautiful flower that grows out of the
most murky swamps
I am Mogel: the idea is that it's our suffering and problems that are the
opportunity to grow
I am Mogel: without struggle there is no progress, as Thurgood Marshall (the
civil rights lawyer!) said
I am Mogel: so,
I am Mogel: Some Problems Are Good
I am Mogel: Wow!
I am Mogel: see, basically,
I am Mogel: buddhism is directed towards people being happy
I am Mogel: and it says that even miserable situations can contain some hope
and positivity
its linear: right on. I'll try to get some Lotus Sutra reading material!
I am Mogel: it's hard to get into it alone--that's why i recommend getting a
good explanatory text
I am Mogel: lemme go ask my 'rents if they have any ideas
I am Mogel: brb
I am Mogel: OK
I am Mogel: my parents said that the translations and writings of Burton
Watson are what you want
I am Mogel: they're objective and informative
its linear: cool, thanks a lot!
its linear: PaperHeartCutOut [my girlfriend] is pretty interested in it too,
mainly because i won't shut up about it... she's probably more annoyed than
interested, actually.
I am Mogel: werd
I am Mogel: the best thing about buddhism is that it's entirely a philosophy
without being a religion
I am Mogel: which is rare
I am Mogel: i mean, the religious parts are cool and important, but it's
based on IDEAS more than ritual
I am Mogel: which i can't say is the case for much else
I am Mogel: christianity is based on the assumption that, despite the
numerous times it's been "edited" and revised through history, the bible is
the word of God--even though men wrote it
I am Mogel: so, uh, you just have to assume it's true
its linear: but God wouldn't let HIS OWN WORD be edited... ehehe
I am Mogel: yo, i'm editing it right now
I am Mogel: i just crossed out the words i didn't like
its linear: ahaha
its linear: i'm not too found of christian thought.
I am Mogel: well, i think some of the intentions are noble
I am Mogel: i.e. DON'T DO BAD STUFF
I am Mogel: i think it's interesting that christianity doesn't trust people
with trying to reason what's right or wrong themselves, basically assuming
everyone is an idiot
I am Mogel: well, that's true
I am Mogel: but i say that for different reasons
I am Mogel: heehehe!!!!
its linear: most of the bible's reasoning of what's "right and wrong" is
idiotic anyway.
I am Mogel: haha, have you actually READ the bible?
I am Mogel: dude
I am Mogel: the book of leviticus is hilarious
I am Mogel: there's like 20 rules about when it's sinful to touch a women at
various days after their period
its linear: hahaha, yes. i gave READ a lot of the bible, unfortunately.
I am Mogel: ahahaha, and the ten commandments passage goes into great length
about not building PITS for your neighbor's animals to fall into
I am Mogel: and of course
I am Mogel: there actually aren't 10 commandments
I am Mogel: there's less than 10
I am Mogel: some scholar later decided to group them in ridulous ways
its linear: not surprising.
I am Mogel: i like some passages by Jesus, though
I am Mogel: well, uh, by some guy who studied under some guy who
supposedly met jesus
I am Mogel: or maybe it was some guy who studied under some guy who studied
under some guy supposedly met jesus
I am Mogel: i forget
its linear: ehehe
its linear: but it's the WORD OF GOD!
its linear: (:
I am Mogel: ahaha, i give some vague respect to guys who have studied the
bible from a figurative and symbollic nature
I am Mogel: but those literal fundamentalistic guys who believe the earth was
made in 7 days, adam & eve, and Noah's Ark are impossible
I am Mogel: i wish someone brainwashed society into believing that Winnie The
Pooh was the word of god
I am Mogel: so that we could start viewing the characters as Manifestations
of Truth
I am Mogel: or maybe a Dr Seuss book
I am Mogel: now THAT would rule
its linear: Dr Seuss ISN'T Jesus?
I am Mogel: ahaha, every time i see FEAR & LOATHING in las vegas i love it
more and more
I am Mogel: what a perfect manifestation of cinema
its linear: yes, agreed. the book is cool too.
-oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo-
And so ends THAT bullshit.
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the clever thing to do here would be to put some sort of copyright. no.
http://www.phonelosers.net/ir
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