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Phantasy Issue 01 Vol 01
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- WELCOME TO THE PREMIER ISSUE OF -
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- -=>PHANTASY<=- -
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- A MONTHLY PUBLICATIOM AND NEWSLETTER OF -
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- THE -
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- INFORMATION -
= RETREIVAL =
- GUILD -
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Volume Number One, Issue Number One Dated 10/31/90
Table of Discontents:
[1] The IIRG meets the FBI (Part 1)
[2] What is The IIRG and why should I support it?
[3] PHANTASY NEWS
[4] Listing of PHANTASY Distribution Sites
OFFICIAL DISLAIMER...
All information in PHANTASY is from USER contributed material
The Publishers and Editors of PHANTASY and THE IIRG disclaim
any liability from any damages of any type that reader or
user of information contained within this newsletter may encounter
from the use of said information.
PHANTASY is (C) 1990 by The IIRG
IIRG and INTERNATIONAL INFORMATION RETREIVAL GUILD is (C) 1982
Editors Note- For Printing PHANTASY uses a 50 line
page format by 80 Columns
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THE INTERNATIONAL INFORMATION RETREIVAL GUILD MEETS THE FBI
(PART ONE)
The following is a translation of a tape of the IIRG's meeting with the
Federal Bureau of Investigations. The IIRG attended this meeting with
a local users group. Some portions have been deleted to protect the
members of the groups Identity and some Handles have been changed
to further protect those identities. Some handles are still correct
as these members did not request anonymity.
We would offer the date of this meeting but do not feel it is prudent
as this would further risk some members to scrutiny.
EDITORS NOTE- Please do not scream about the translation of the
FBI Agents portions. This is the way he actually
talked and we have brought it directly to text-form.
Following a introduction by the President of the Local Users Group
this is the way the meeting proceeded.
FBI AGENT- I have a lot of information here, but first I'd like to thank
(DELETED) and the (DELETED) for inviting me here tonight.
Its a chance to share some information and maybe give you all
some insight of maybe what we do know and what we don't know,
and maybe relate a couple of cases the FBI's been involved in.
There are not a whole lot, the ahhh law that governs computer
crime has only been on the books since 1984, I think ahhh that
Connecticut is one of the first states to ahhh, have a computer
oriented law, ahhh as (DELETED) mentioned my name is BILL
ATKINSON and I'm a special agent with the FBI and I'm assigned
with the Hartford resident angency.
I have a background in law enforcement, I spent nine and a half
in Washington D.C. on the police department and I've been with
the FBI since 1984.
I dont have a computer background and you'll know that,
That after i get done and you ask me one question and it just
wipes me out right there.
OLD TIMER- (ROBUST LAUGH)
FBI AGENT- The cases that our office has been involved in, They have used
computer experts from Washington D.C., out of the Washington
field office.
I think they have two, who are court certified computer experts
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FBI AGENT- So that lets you know as far as law enforcemaent goes its a,
It's a brand new ball game, Ahhh I know the case I'm gonna
tell you about or one of them. They had a whole room full of
disks, Whatever the big brown tapes are. They had a whole room
full of them. They needed a computer expert just to figure out
what the evidence was that the seized.
WHOLE ROOM- (LAUGHTER)
FBI AGENT- Computer crime, the way it looks. Is going to affect everyone a
lot more than your common neighborhood bank robberies.
They last forever and ever and once they're detected, the people
who are involved in it really don't want to report it.
And the costs of changing the policies that allowed it to
happen are just astronomical. We can see that with the Pratt
and Whitney, different segments of government contract bidding.
It's just astronomical the amount of money that it costs the
taxpayers. It probably could pay my salary for at least six
months anyway.
OLD TIMER- (Extremely Sadistic laugh)
FBI AGENT- Maybe when I get done you'll see at least what the FBI is
trying to do, I'll try to touch the motives that generates the
computer crime and the problems that it creates, and the
problem it creates for the people trying to solve the crimes.
First let me say that we are an asset that probably every
segment of United States society can use the FBI.
There are a lot of people who don't know just how helpful we
can be. They think that if they call the FBI, they're gonna be
recorded and theres gonna be a dossier opened on you
immediatly.
Some of the phone calls we get shold be recorded just for the
pure craziness of them all.
But don't hesitate, that if on your job site or somewhere down
the line you come across something that appears to be
suspicious or just out of the ordinary.
Or some information that will help one of the people in our
office. We have accountants who work white collar crime, we've
had a couple of guys who worked on the Pratt and Whitney,
STANGER case, which I'll get into later, who keep pretty much in
touch with the people in Washington as to whats going on.
But theres always someone out there that has a new wrinkle,
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FBI AGENT- I'm sure theres a few people in this room, Whats the term?
HACKERS, that come across things the rest of the country
doesn't know is out there.
And with Every crime, every computer crime, you probably have
the Fraud By Wire Statutes that is violated and the
Interstate Transportation of stolen property, bank fraud,
embezzelment, and mail fraud.
There all tied in, and where you might think where theres just
a computer problem, it might go on and be a whole interstate
system thats being worked, and it happens.
It happened recently in Texas, we had some people along the
whole SouthWest United States that was just being bounced from
one system to another. It took them months and months to
figure out and then they decided not to prosecute.
So there might be something you'd like to give us or you
might not want to get involved, or at least if you want to use
us as a sounding board, feel free to do that.
I know one of the things the agent who gave me this
information said "Tell them about a definition of computer
crime" So I went back to my books, I went back to Quantico
two years ago, and I remembered one of the instructers down
there said "I'm gonna give you a definition"
So lets start out by saying,
Really Computer Crime isn't really Computer Crime
It's just a crime where a Computer happened to be in the Room
With that, everyone looks like wheres this guy coming from?
Nobodys gonna actully say the computer commited the crime!
So we had figured this guy had punched one too many buttons
along the way and had lost touch with reality.
I don't know if you can consider the computer the criminal
or the person programming the computer the criminal.
Once the crime has been defined, if we're notified about one
and determine whats been stolen or whats been altered or
manipulated, We can pretty well tell who committed the crime.
That parts the easy part.
There will be instances where you know whats been done, and
you know who did it. But as you are aware of, computer
programs and manipulations you can do with computers,
it's very difficult to prove a certain person commited the
crime.
Thats where I guess the problem lies in this day and age
Its not knowing whats been done or knowing who did it,
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FBI AGENT- Its being able to prove it.
And what we know with these laws being on the books for
two years, there is no case law and every time one of these
cases goes to court its a whole new baliwick for the
judge, the prosecuters, and the defense attornys.
Theres no, NO precedent has been really set as to whats
evidence, whats real evidence, are copies evidence?
In federal court, copies can't be admitted as evidence.
So a computer printout? Is the printout the evidence?
Is the computer the evidence? Is the programmer the evidence?
And every time you go to court in a different district
you have a different opinion.
KNIGHTHACK- So if your gonna do it, Do it now?
FBI AGENT- Yeah, do it while theres still time to figure out what the
solution is....By the way, Your name please??
WHOLE ROOM- (Laughter)
FBI AGENT-When are you going to commit this crime?
KNIGHTHACK- Tommorrow!
FBI AGENT- Thats true, thats what the whole problem is.
They've been passed, all the laws have been passed by the
legislators and haven't been interpeted yet by the judges
What little case law there is can change with every
different program that comes up, because as the computer
gets more refined, So do the crimes.
What was a murder yesterday, is still a murder tommorrow,
But what was a computer crime today, wasn't yesterday, and
probably won't be tommorrow.
I'm sure you can all think up different things you'd like to
do, or in your case (POINTING AT KNIGHTHACK), have done and a
WHOLE ROOM- (Laughter)
KNIGHTHACK- I'm leaving now.
FBI AGENT- Just the imagination, you can look at the different computer
games, I have a case I'm trying to work on, COMPUTER PIRACY
Just one of the computer boards themselves that are going into
the games, and they say thats rather simple.
Because you can look at a certain format and know the person,
who put it together.
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FBI AGENT- And he basically initials the work by the way he puts it
together. But now if he looks at it and you look at it,
you would all say "Yeah you can tell thats what was done"
But if you give it to a jury to look at, that doesn't know
input from output, they would have no idea who put this
transistor here.
WHOLE ROOM- (Laughter)
FBI AGENT- Are transistors still used, I don't know
MERCENARY- AHHH, Not to often.
WHOLE ROOM- (Laughter)
FBI AGENT- So ahhh, thats the whole problem, another problem we have,
I dont know if its as big a problem now as when, Oh I don't
know you can tell me, with people under the ages of 17 and
16 getting into different databanks and manipulating those
systems or just passing information around on the BBS's or
whatever.
The ahhh. federal prosecution of anyone under the age of 17
is preety well unheard of, You have to get a specific request
from the Department of Justice and a United States Attorny
is gonna want to prosecute the case. And it has to be clear
to the FBI and everyone else and if it doesn't really happen
on the state level, They'll prosecute from 16 and under,
They say they will here in Connecticut.
But then you look at the crimes themselves and you know whats
been done. Just to get into the bank and pass the information
Will that be determined to be a crime?
Maybe it will, maybe it won't.
One agent I know in our office that was working a local case
involving an insurance company. Where a High-School student
had gained access through getting initialy in the database
and then he'd go to bed at night and programmed his computer
to go through all the numbers and find the code, When he
got up in the morning, Low and Behold, he was in this
insurance companies database.
Well when he did, he fooled around for a couple of months
The Insurance company, (Whose name will go unmentioned), before
you all go out and cancel your polocies tommorrow.
He was in and out for about two months, and they got a trap on
the call and placed him in East Hartford or Manchester area.
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FBI AGENT- and they really didn't know what to do with it, he really
wasn't doing anything but they knew he was coming online,
late at night and early in the morning. They were perplexed,
How do we stop him, really who is he?
Because all they really knew was it was coming back to a
telephone in East Hartford or Manchester.
Well I guess they got there answer in one short way,
he put on a message one morning and lets see what did it say?
It went something to this effect,
He identified all there customers, and all there insurance
users and he wanted a corvette or he would notify all the
users the system was unsafe and he had access to all there
accounts.
Well I guess they sent him back a message, and they went
back and forth till they narrowed down who they were
dealing with through the telephone company with a trap on the
line and they traced it to a specific phone.
Anonymous- He shold have waited till they went on strike.
Whole Room- (Laughter)
FBI AGENT- Then they delivered the corvette and he came to pick it up,
and he was only 14 or 15 and couldn't have driven anyway
But they said shame on you and don't do it again, he was
scared
MERCENARY- A good little slap on the wrist.
FBI AGENT- And now he's probably 18 or whatever and shooting for a rolls
KNIGHTHACK- No, now he's probably in the FBI's Computer.
FBI AGENT- Yeah, thats probably right, now thatcase was easy, that was
extortion, he made a demand, then said what he was going to do
and he was going to try to hurt there business.
So in that case, they had extortion and had he been over
17 they could have prosecuted him easily.
ANONYMOUS- Almost more effective than a gun!
FBI AGENT- Yes, It really is when your dealing with the millions they're
dealing with and the amount of loss they could under go.
If they decided to go with the prosecution, that would have
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FBI AGENT- been easy. But since he was that age and they didn't even
do that, Now had he done something less extreme or more
extereme, whatever the case may be.
What would they have done with him? Thats still the question.
Theres never been a computer crime in Connecticut and thats
one of the bolder statutes as far as computer crime goes.
One of the problems investigators have encounterd when
facing computer crime is just what I said,
What laws have been violated, I know if a high-school hacker
gains access to a database, Whats the worth?
Thats what prosecuters look for. How much did he get?
Can the penalty be equal or greater than what he obtained?
Did the person really obtain anything?
If he hurts you business or causes you to use a computer
analyist to try to track him down?
He's hurt the company but not made any monetary gain?
Thats what they'll still be looking at until they finally put
a few experts into an area, Computer experts like yourselves
that say hey and become police officers or investigators
and can attack the problem where it is, and it is a problem.
Until they do that they'll have guys like me or other
ex-policeman or accountants who will have to take the word of
everybody else and basically hope and pray they guess
correctly on how were gonna catch the persons doing it.
I know theres gotta be all different kinds of ways to corrupt
the system and one of the biggest problems, that movie, ahhh
about the kid who got into..
KNIGHTHACK- Wargames?
FBI AGENT- Thats one of the biggest fears especially with the FBI
going to computer files and computer finger-print systems.
The fedreal government has all its pricing statistics and
bids on computer also.
So if you can imagine a 15 or 16 year old on his computer all
night, imagine the professional criminal or the proffessional
spy or whatever, he has his whole life, eight hours a day and
he gets paid and if he wants to put in overtime thats a free
shot. And if you have to figure, for every program written
theres somebody who can figure it out, because someone had to
put it in the computer.
ANONYMOUS- No system is 100 per cent foolproof. if somone wants to work
hard and long enough, he can get in any system.
FBI AGENT- Yes, Right but what do you do when he gets in??
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That Ends Part one of: THE IIRG MEETS THE FBI
Be sure to get next months issue for the conclusion.
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| PHANTASY FEATURE ARTICLE TWO: |
| |
| THE |
| INTERNATIONAL |
| INFORMATION |
| RETREIVAL |
| GUILD |
| |
| What is it, and why should I support it |
| |
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The International Information Retreival Guild is a group of hackers,
who are still bonded together in the earliest traditions of the art.
We ask for No money, No contributions and the only thing we've ever
charged for, are the costs of disks or tapes.
We believe that the Guild should be supported by its actions and that
if individuals are happy with our performance, voluntary contributions
will follow. We are once again happy to join the mainstream hacking
community and look forward to communicating with the world once more.
The IIRG has been almost silent for three years now, but several members
after reviewing present conditions have reactivated the group.
We hope those of you who do remember us, and those of you who would like
to come to know us and communicate with us will do so.
Listed at the end of this issue will be several BBS systems where we
we can be contacted and where PHANTASY will be distributed.
Since this issue has been a little rushed, and we have not had much time
to prepare for our new resurgence more information will be forthcoming
in following issues.
We hope to bring you all the hacking and phreaking news possible
as well as programming, and insider reports.
Most of our former contacts with several larger computer companies
are still in place and we hope to be bringing you there inside
dirt as to whats going on.
So enjoy our forthcoming issues and we hope to be hearing from you...
The IIRG-1990
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PHANTASY NEWS......
Well as we stated we've not had much time to prepare but here's
what we do have for now...
Date-Line Nov 6th through 15th
Microsoft to hold free WINDOWS computing Seminars in the following
cities on the following dates....
Nov 6-Hartford, Ct.-9am to 11:30am-Ramada Inn, Meriden, 275 Research Pkwy
Nov 8-Denver, CO-9am to 11:30am and 1:30pm to 4:00pm at the
Westin Hotel Tabor Center, 1672 Lawrence St.
Nov 8-Dallas Texas-9am to 11:30am and 1:30pm to 4:00pm at the
Southland Center Hotel, 400 N. Olive St.
Nov 13-Minneapolis, MN-9:00am to 11:30am and 1:30pm to 4:00pm at the
Radisson Hotel Metrodome, 615 Washington Ave S. E.
Nov 15-Detroit, MI-9:00am to 11:30am and 1:30pm to 4:00pm at the
Westin Hotel Detroit, Renaissance Center
Date-Line Nov 12th through January 9th, 1991
VMS Systems Security V5 Seminars to be held at
Nov 12-14 Denver, Co at the Digital Training Center
212-702-4300
December 3-5 San Diego, CA at the Humphreys 1/2 Moon Inn
619-224-3411
January 7-9 Boston MA at the Bay Back Hilton
617-236-1100
We hear the course fee is $995 and is 3 days long
One of our members was able to get in for free by
lurking around back in October and tells us the
Seminar offers an:
1.Overview of System Security
2.Security Threats discussion covering:
(User-based attacks, Operating system penetration, trap doors,
worms, viruses Trojans and Indirect Hacker attacks)
3.Type of Security Controls
4.Log in Controls
5.Files and Other Protection
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6.Security Implemenatation Methods
7.Security Auditing
8.VAXcluster Security
A listing of DEC's DECnet-Vax Network security seminars will
be forthcoming in the next issue.
PHANTASY DISTRIBUTION SITES
This is the List of BBS's that will be carrying Phantasy as of
October 31, 1990...
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The Rune Stone BBS
IIRG NODE #1 203-485-0088
1200/2400 Baud
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Lightning Systems
1200/2400 Baud 414-363-4282
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Prismatic Sphere
1200/2400 Baud 518-372-8045
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Northeast Survival BBS
1200/2400 Baud 216-442-0879
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MiniHost BBS
1200/2400 Baud 203-496-9183
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If you would like your BBS to be a distributor of Phantasy
Call The Rune Stone and State so in Feedback to Sysop
May Odin Guide Your way....
The IIRG-10/90
End This Issue.............
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