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Info-Atari16 Digest Vol. 92 Issue 046
Info-Atari16 Digest Sun, 26 Jan 92 Volume 92 : Issue 46
Today's Topics:
Anti-flamewar proposal. (2 msgs)
Atarians! Where Are You?! (3 msgs)
Color Printer for sale
Questions about TOS versions
QuickST3 -> MEGA_STe... / CrackArt
Supra Interface PROBLEM
TOS chipsets (was Re: What to do?)
TT Fast-RAM for sale
Various ST topics (2 msgs)
VORTEX ATonce 386SX for MSTE's
want to BUY st (software), as opposed to sell
What to do? (2 msgs)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 25 Jan 92 21:54:55 GMT
From:
noao!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!news.cs.indiana.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!roma!
wmagro@arizona.edu (William Magro)
Subject: Anti-flamewar proposal.
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
If you hate posts that respond to flamers, read on. This one is
different.
I own an Atari 1040 and a Mac SE. I work on Sparcstations and a Mac
IIx. I feel qualified to discuss my likes and dislikes about each of
these machines, because I use them regularly. I love my Atari and I
always amaze people when I show them what it can do.
The problem with flamewars is that each amiga or atari user roots for
their own machine and picks on the other guy's machine. I don't like
flamewars, but I do enjoy comparisons of various machines, even if I
have no explicit plans to change computers as a result of the discussion.
Since newsgroups are a forem for discussion, our newsgroup is a natural
place to hold such a discussion.
I therefore feel that it would me most informative if each user were to
say what they _dislike_ about their machine in addition to what they do
like. In this spirit, and understanding that people have already rooted
for the ST/STe/TT's good qualities, I'd like to say what I don't like
about my ST. I invite a humble Amiga owner to do the same.
"Why my Atari 1040STf Sucks," by Bill Magro
I) GEM/Desktop has a lot of problems
A) Mouse events are not registered quickly, so if I click on a button
and quickly move the mouse, the button doesn't see the click. Very
annoying, and it slows me down.
B) I have to bring a window to the front before I can launch a program
from it. In the mac's finder, if I double click on an icon in an
obscured window, the window comes forward and the program runs. In
GEM the window just comes forward. Arghh! This slows me down.
C) I can't arrange my desktop in any efficient way. Not being able to
put programs on the desktop or to arrange them freely in a window
makes launching programs a nightmare. This slows me down.
D) There is no effective and consistent multitasking environment. This
is the 90's. A lot of people ask what the big deal is about multi-
tasking. There isn't one until you use it for a week or so and then
try to go back. I don't know how many Atari owners use their computers
for real work. My work is scientific computing and I need to log into
the big computers and do runs, then grab the data and graph it
immediately, then update my TeX document with the results. I cannot
do this right now with my ST (I don't have multigem yet). Atari
really _needs_ multitasking.
E) Do we really need to reboot to change resolutions? Come on Atari,
you can do better than this.
II) Hardware bitches
A) Why is TOS in ROM? What a stupid idea. Sure I can turn my computer
on and get a desktop without a long boot time. That is nice.
Unfortunately, if you hate the Desktop (see above), every time you
turn the computer on you _have_ to see that desktop. Almost any piece
of software is obsolete the day it is released. Putting your operating
system in ROM is like a 19 year old who gets "I am 19 years old"
tattooed on his chest. Atari only hurts itself by putting the OS out
in such a difficult (and expensive) upgrade format. Programs like
neodesk, folderxxx, pinhead, etc. should not have to exist.
B) Our graphics modes suck. 640x400 mono is great for work. But everyone
else has at least 640x400 256 colors available now. The new TT
resolutions should be in _all_ of the machines by now. Come on Atari!
C) We need a bus (or buss if you are a total computer nerd)! People
like to upgrade their machines. If you don't make provisions,
people will hack up their machines anyway. (VME bus in Mega/TT is
good).
D) The power supply/keyboard/mouse all suck. The keyboard is mushy, but
reliable. The power supply is too weak (mine has burned out twice in
three years). The mice don't feel very nice and are prone to quickly
wearing out. (Again Mega/TT seem to deal with this.)
E) Non standard connectors. ACSI, monitor and drive ports, a male rs232
port?!?!?! Come on! If you are going to introduce new connectors, at
least give them advantages over the standard connectors.
Why do I _love_ my ST? For the same reasons every other owner does. It is
an awesome computer, just a little outdated. Ok amiga/mac/pc/acorn/next/sun/
ibm rs/hp/decstation/vaxstation/cray/timex/ncube/connection-machine/SGI iris/
commodore64/atari8bit/pet/appleII owners, it's your turn. What do _you_
hate about your machine? Let's let each owner cut their own machine down.
Then we might actually learn something from these discussions.
By the way, if you decide to followup on this article, please don't include
the whole thing and respond line-by-line. Can you imagine anything more
agonizing than having to read this again in its entirety?
--Bill
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jan 92 02:58:44 GMT
From:
noao!asuvax!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!usc!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!comp.vu
w.ac.nz!actrix!Roger.Sheppard@arizona.edu (Roger Sheppard)
Subject: Anti-flamewar proposal.
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
One think that could fix one or two of your gripes could be Neodesk III
or say the new TOS 2.06..
There is another Big computer in the UK, Acorn A5000 that has 2 megs bytes
Rom of RISC OS, with a lot of sotfware built in, these computers , they
have a range, (the A5000 is one of there latest), are aimed at schools
and Universities..
--
*** Roger W. Sheppard * Roger.Sheppard@bbs.actrix.gen.nz ***
*** 85 Donovan Rd * * GEnie. R.SHEPPARD5 ***
*** Kapiti At least I don't Flicker, ***
*** New Zealand.. * not like a dying light globe ***
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jan 92 20:54:11 GMT
From: mcsun!uknet!bcc.ac.uk!ucacmsu@uunet.uu.net (Mr Stephen R Usher)
Subject: Atarians! Where Are You?!
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
In article <1992Jan24.044208.21223@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu
(Ray) writes:
>In article <1992Jan23.132827.48664@link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk> ucacmsu@ucl.ac.uk (Mr
Stephen R Usher) writes:
>>In article <1992Jan23.071233.10605@milton.u.washington.edu>
tlk@hardy.u.washington.edu (Jeremy C. Norberg) writes:
>>>In article <1992Jan18.122843.10678@actrix.gen.nz>
Roger.Sheppard@actrix.gen.nz (Roger Sheppard) writes:
[... Stuff deleted]
>>PS. The Amiga is a fine machine for graphics, and quite good for sound, but
>>it isn't ideal for some things, including I must say, programming in C.
>
> You're gonna have to justify this statement. The Amiga has more
>programming tools than I can count. Numerous C compilers, 4 Forth
>implementations, Modula-2, Oberon, Smalltalk, Eiffel, Lisp/Scheme,
>Basic (plentity of them including ones that produce optimized
>assembly), AMOS, Fortran, the list goes on. Almost every
>language has been ported. There are a couple PD interface builders
>for GUI work, PD debuggers, not to mention that AmigaDOS looks and
>smells like Unix from the shell point of view.
>There is an entire (PD)C programming manual on disk that teaches
>Amiga programming step by step. Not to mention the 590 fish disks
>FULL of programs with C source code.
>
> I'd say the Amiga is the second best computer to program C on
>besides the NeXT.
>
Firstly.. I said that it wasn't ideal, I didn't say that it was horrid or
anything else.
Secondly.. I wouldn't quite put it just behind the NeXT (but that's a purely
personal point of view). There is C programming and C programming, if you
are talking about program development for one platform only, then, yes, the
Amiga is quite a nice platform.
I must admit that before your posting I knew of only three C compilers for
the Amiga, they being Lattice, Sozobon and GNU. In my optinion (and that of
a couple of Amiga programming friends), Lattice C (version 5 point
something) is not a simple compiler to use and has a major bug in its
implementation of the vprintf() function in its library. The last I heard of
Sozobon was that it didn't come with a library. I knew nothing of the GCC
port other than it existed.
>>--
>>Addresses:-
>>JANET:- ucacmsu@uk.ac.ucl or susher@uk.ac.csm
>>Internet:- ucacmsu@ucl.ac.uk or susher@csm.ac.uk
Steve
PS. I was not flaming the Amiga, it is a fine machine. It's just not quite
my cup of tea. Lets build bridges between our communities rather than divide
them, good things can come of this, such as the Sozobon compiler for the
Amiga. Maybe a nice Amiga owner can write a program which will be of a great
use to Atari users.
--
Addresses:-
JANET:- ucacmsu@uk.ac.ucl or susher@uk.ac.csm
Internet:- ucacmsu@ucl.ac.uk or susher@csm.ac.uk
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jan 92 02:32:16 GMT
From:
arizona.edu!cerritos.edu!nic.csu.net!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!lina
c!att!cbfsb!cbnewsg.cb.att.com!ncherry@arizona.edu (neil j.cherry)
Subject: Atarians! Where Are You?!
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
As a continuation of ever shrinking bandwith and total childish behavour, I
submit my '2 cents':
My Timex-Sinclair is betterrrrr than yourrrrrr computer, so there!
Nan na na na na na!
Actually, a computer is only as good as its user! NJC
PS This was written on a 3B1, supposedly the boat anchor of Unix machines!
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jan 92 02:35:06 GMT
From:
arizona.edu!cerritos.edu!nic.csu.net!usc!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!ogicse!unmv
ax!nmt.edu!jking@arizona.edu ('Admiral JC')
Subject: Atarians! Where Are You?!
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
In article <53381@cup.portal.com> Azog-Thoth@cup.portal.com (William Thomas
Daugustine) writes:
>
>
>Someone also pointed out that the Amiga GUI looked like it was
>a hack job... I would like to point out that the Amiga was not
>developed by Commodore. Who, I forget, but Commodore purchased
>the rights. So chances are it was a hack job by the original
>developers.
>
Actually, interestingly enough.. it was someone working for Atari who
broke contract and took off...
_
/\/\/\/\> ... Slither...
<Admiral JC>
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jan 92 22:31:13 GMT
From:
arizona.edu!cerritos.edu!nic.csu.net!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.u
texas.edu!news@arizona.edu (Troy Carpenter)
Subject: Color Printer for sale
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
FOR SALE:
Epson JX80 7 COLOR printer.
Printer switchbox and cables
Manuals included (If I can find them!!)
$200 obo, you pay shipping.
Send Email to : psurge@cs.utexas.edu
or if this bounces, send email to : psurge@cc.utexas.edu
Troy Carpenter
Department of Computer Sciences
THE University of Texas, Austin
psurge@cs.utexas.edu
"You're so open minded that your brain leaked out" - Steve Taylor
*>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The best thing in life costs exactly that <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<*
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jan 92 23:47:02 GMT
From: van-bc!jonh.wimsey.bc.ca!jhenders@uunet.uu.net (John Henders)
Subject: Questions about TOS versions
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
In <1992Jan24.234223.15404@CS.ORST.EDU>, John Thaanum writes:
>
>Do any of you know if Falcon runs under 2.06? I've had 1.4 installed for
>a while, and my copy of Falcon craps out at the "Insert Disk Two" prompt.
There's good news and bad news. The bad news is a _lot_ of games
don't work on 2.0(5,6) and Falcon is one of them. Also FOTI and numerous
others. A freind tells me the keyboard handler was changed, and this is
what breaks some games.
The good news is your Falcon should work on 1.4. Just write protect
disk one. ( Or was it don't? ) It was discussed when the game came out,
and the fix is that simple.
If this is not the case, get in touch with Spectrum Holobyte, as their
support is excellant for their existing games, even if they aren't
converting any more. You can upgrade to the latest version, 1.2, for
$15.
--
John Henders jhenders@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca
Vancouver,BC or ubc.cs!van-bc!jonh!jhenders
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jan 92 00:25:59 GMT
From:
noao!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!usc!rpi!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!eecg.toronto.edu
!singhvk@arizona.edu (Vijaya Singh (Vij))
Subject: QuickST3 -> MEGA_STe... / CrackArt
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
I tried the QuickST2 demo on my TOS 1.0 1040ST and noticed quite
a speedup. I'll be upgrading to a MEGA_STe soon and I'm wondering
whether QuickST3 is still worthwhile to get, or has stuff been cleaned
up in the MEGA???
I also ftped the CrackArt drawing program from atari.archive. Wow,
never realized how good low-rez could look. Does anyone know of
English doc (the original docs are written in German).
Thanks,
VIJ...
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jan 92 22:36:15 GMT
From:
arizona.edu!cerritos.edu!nic.csu.net!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.o
hio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!ba014@arizona.edu
(Matthew C. Brinkhoff)
Subject: Supra Interface PROBLEM
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
I've got a Supra ST DMA->SCSI Interface that's about a year old (It's
got the clock on it) and I'm having some <gasp> troubles.
I've got two ST-125N 20Meg SCSI Drives I'd like to hook up to it. I can
get them to work by themselves, but they won't work cabled together on
the interface. The SUPRAFMT.PRG recognises and partitions both drives,
but GEM/TOS tells me that drive "E" doesn't exist (the first partition
on the 2nd ST-125N.) Both drives are terminated, otherwise I get
erratic results from both drives. The Supra documentation discusses
drives that may supply termination power from the SCSI bus on Pin 26 of
the cable - and suggests clipping that pin between the two drives.
However, it also says that the drives would likely not spin at all if
that were the case.
Any hints, clues, etc. before I resort to Supra tech support? Last time
I called them it took forever to get thru only to find out that the guy
on the other end couldn't answer my question...
--
o-------------------------------------------------------------------------o
| Orwell was an optimist! | ba014@cleveland.freenet.edu | E Pluribus Unix |
o-------------------------------------------------------------------------o
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jan 92 00:02:52 GMT
From: duke!news.duke.edu!acpub.duke.edu!bigham@mcnc.org (Scott Bigham)
Subject: TOS chipsets (was Re: What to do?)
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
From the Holy Book of <ENTROPY.92Jan23184939@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
as spake by entropy@gnu.ai.mit.edu (maximum entropy) :
>I'm considering doing a TOS 1.4 upgrade in my circa-1987 1040 ST.
>(rev. D motherboard.) Where are the TOS roms located? I found a
>group of 6 chips under the power supply that looks like it might be
>the TOS,
That's where they were on my Nov. `85 machine, so you're probably set.
> but I'd like to be sure, so that I don't order the wrong set
>and find out from the installation instructions
What installation instructions? :)
[Well, that's slightly unfair; the company you order the upgrade from might
supply instructions. Toad does. Atari doesn't.]
-sbigham
--
Scott Bigham | The opinions expressed above are
bigham@hercules.acpub.duke.edu | (c) 1991 Hacker Ltd. and cannot be
| copied or distributed without a
| Darn Good Reason(tm).
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jan 92 05:32:47 GMT
From: mcsun!uknet!stl!robobar!ibmpcug!demon!news@uunet.uu.net (Keith
Sommerville)
Subject: TT Fast-RAM for sale
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
It occurs to me that the bus connections are continued "through" the
Fast-Ram board. i wonder if one could simply plop another one on top?
Not going to shell out 350 squids to find out though.
B-)
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jan 92 04:20:18 GMT
From:
arizona.edu!cerritos.edu!nic.csu.net!usc!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!comp.vuw.ac.nz!ac
trix!Alex.Valdez@arizona.edu (Alex Valdez)
Subject: Various ST topics
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
In article <1992Jan25.195351.26589@watserv1.waterloo.edu>
ec333way@sail.uwaterloo.ca (Winter92 BEACON ec333 account) writes:
> I have several questions: is MiNT at all usable on a 1 meg ST?
Yes, but having four megs would definitely help.
> Is TeX Usable on a 1 meg ST w/ hard drive?
I believe version 3.1 is not but 2.9 is.
> Also, I'm interested in whatever happened to Megamax as I have Laser C
> and am wondering if a later version is available.
What version of Laser C do you have. The last version, released ages
ago was 2.0 (or was it 2.1? I forget.) At any rate, new versions are
not forthcoming.
--
================================Alex Valdez=============================
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jan 92 02:44:03 GMT
From:
noao!asuvax!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!comp.vuw.ac
.nz!actrix!Roger.Sheppard@arizona.edu (Roger Sheppard)
Subject: Various ST topics
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
In article <1992Jan25.195351.26589@watserv1.waterloo.edu>
ec333way@sail.uwaterloo.ca (Winter92 BEACON ec333 account) writes:
> I was able to read my first post to the newsgroup, but it seems that either 1)
it didn't make it out to the rest of the civilized world or 2) no one felt like
> replying.. Would someone at least respond (from outside of university of
waterloo) so that I know that this did reach the 'net'??
>
> I have several questions: is MiNT at all usable on a 1 meg ST?
> Is TeX Usable on a 1 meg ST w/ hard drive?
> If the answer to either is yes, would someone PLEASE either send me a list of
files I need, or point me to a file outlining which files I need? I can access
most of the free world through ftp, so I can get the files myself.
>
> I recently got bash-bin and bash-doc (in lzh format) from a.a.u.e...
> LHA (on the PC) wouldn't unarchive either one, lharc would, but the bash-doc
file was messed up, and the bash.ttp ran and returned to desktop in 1ms.. Did I
get a bad copy, or do I specifically need to unarchive them on the ST??
>
> Also, I'm interested in whatever happened to Megamax as I have Laser C and am
wondering if a later version is available.
>
> Regarding the 2/6 TOS chipsets - I opened up my 1040STFM, and found 2 chips in
sockets, with the other 4 punched out on the PCB, but 'soldered up'. I haven't
checked the serial number with the one posted here before, but is there a
chance I can get the 6 chipset to work? What is the retail price of tos 1.4
right now?
> Or, how much is 2.06 right now for the older ST's?? I have a socket for
blitter on my motherboard as well - does this mean I can buy one and stick it
in? Is there any purpose to this - ie do more than a handful of programs
actually use it? Will it work? How much is a blitter going for, and where can I
get one?
>
> I would be very appreciative for answers to any of my questions.
>
> Mattias Hembruch
>
> Please reply to either 1) the net,
> 2) mghembruch@electrical.watstar.uwaterloo.ca or
> 3) ec333way@sail.uwaterloo.ca
Well the roms should be in a cluster all together, I have never seen one
like you are quoting, do you think that these are Roms..??
The Roms on my machine are down the left side marked H-0,
H-1,H-2,L-0,L-1 and L-2...
A UK, firm does a PCB, that takes 2 , 2 chip rom sets, and let you
switch between them, TOS1.2/1.4..
Your machine is I think the same as mine, there should be small solder pads
nere the Roms, they have markings like 1M, 256K, A16/A17 etc, these are
for the type of Roms...
Best Electronics sell the Blitter Kit, I have been trying to ring them
from here, but from what I can gather, they are only open in the afternoon,
there are 2 solder pad/jumpers that need to be changed to enable the blitter.
--
*** Roger W. Sheppard * Roger.Sheppard@bbs.actrix.gen.nz ***
*** 85 Donovan Rd * * GEnie. R.SHEPPARD5 ***
*** Kapiti At least I don't Flicker, ***
*** New Zealand.. * not like a dying light globe ***
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jan 92 00:58:12 GMT
From:
arizona.edu!cerritos.edu!nic.csu.net!usc!rpi!uwm.edu!ogicse!unmvax!nmt.edu!ehob
bs@arizona.edu (Eric Hobbs)
Subject: VORTEX ATonce 386SX for MSTE's
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
In article <1992Jan25.114505.21983@ugle.unit.no> stigvi@Lise.Unit.NO (Stig Vidar
Hovland) writes:
>In article <1992Jan21.164140.143@unibi.uni-bielefeld.de>,
itschere@techfak.uni-bielefeld.de (Torsten Scherer) writes:
> >
> > Some facts :
> >
> > - 32 bit CPU 80C386SX-16MHz
>
>This must be wrong. Isn't the 80386SX a 16 bit processor as the same way the
68000 is.
>
>Stig Vidar Hovland - stigvi@lise.unit.no
Don't flame me if I'm wrong, but I believe a 386SX is a 32-bit
processor, but it has a 16-bit bus.
Anyone know for sure?
Eric A. Hobbs
ehobbs@JUPITER.nmt.edu
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jan 92 01:45:21 GMT
From:
arizona.edu!cerritos.edu!nic.csu.net!usc!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!ogicse!qicl
ab!nosun!loop!dont@arizona.edu (Don Taylor;235-6853;;;loop)
Subject: want to BUY st (software), as opposed to sell
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
With all the activity of selling ST's, does anyone have a faster version of
BASIC or a BASIC compiler for a 520 ST that they would sell inexpensively?
How about any math related software, or maybe fractal or chaos or simulation
or neural net software?
(I gave a friend an ST and he really resists learning yet another programming
language but some of the math work he is doing is really going slowly in BASIC)
On another note, if anyone can tell from the return address on this WHY I can't
get a peep out of the atari archive mail server I would be greatly appreciative.
I would love to get some files, like the SubCal package but have not been able
to ever be acknowledged. Oh, do we need a real domain address around here.
Thanks
Don Taylor
503-235-6853
dont@loop.UUCP
loop!dont@nosun.west.sun.com
qiclab.scn.rain.com!loop!dont
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jan 92 05:32:40 GMT
From: mcsun!uknet!stl!robobar!ibmpcug!demon!news@uunet.uu.net (Keith
Sommerville)
Subject: What to do?
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
"How did you get the ICD Utils to see the TT SCSI BUS?"
Any version of ICD after 5.2.x (currently 5.5 here in UK) sees the SCSI
bus on the TT. For some reason though, I have one TT SCSI Hard Drive and two
ACSI Hard drives off an ICD card, and although it all runs just fine, the
IDCHECK and RATHD progs dont see the ACSI drives anymore. They used to see the-
m
when there was only one external drive.
Any comments ICD?
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jan 92 05:32:56 GMT
From: mcsun!uknet!stl!robobar!ibmpcug!demon!news@uunet.uu.net (Keith
Sommerville)
Subject: What to do?
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
>"you need 5.x.x of the ICD utils to work with a TT, and an ICD
adapter" -
not quite true! You no longer need the ICD adapter. They will now let you
use ICD stuff without an adapter but the caches are disabled.
------------------------------
End of Info-Atari16 Digest
******************************
