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Info-Atari16 Digest Vol. 91 Issue 593
Info-Atari16 Digest Tue, 12 Nov 91 Volume 91 : Issue 593
Today's Topics:
!BGERVIN! I can't email you
1040ST for sale
520 ST Stuff for sale
8mhz ST = 16mhz 386 (2 msgs)
AMIGA IFF FILES TO NEOCHROME / DEGAS FORMAT
Computer benchmarking
FAX MOdem for ST
First Word and Star NP-10
For Sale: OP[D[DPo[Drospero-C
Info-Atari16 Digest V91 #591
SCSI info needed
Spectre 128 and Translator One for sale
Terminal program for TT
Uploading to VAX
Video Toaster
WHAT IS MINT?
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 12 Nov 91 21:53:57 GMT
From: crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!mc4c+@pt.cs.cmu.edu (Mark Choi)
Subject: !BGERVIN! I can't email you
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
The trade seems fine with me, except for one thing. HOW THE HECK CAN I
E-MAIL YOU?! :( Everytime I send to you I bounce. I will try to do it
one more time, but If not I will have to post on the net. I doubt we
should do it all there, though, so if you can, can you e-mail me your
tele no., as you seem to be able to get through to me just fine. My
number is 412 422 3983. Let's set this up.
------------------------------
Date: 12 Nov 91 21:56:40 GMT
From: crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!mc4c+@pt.cs.cmu.edu (Mark Choi)
Subject: 1040ST for sale
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
O.K.
I have a 1040ST with colour monitor for sale. $375 OBO.
mark
------------------------------
Date: 12 Nov 91 17:30:44 GMT
From: netnews.upenn.edu!grad1.cis.upenn.edu@rutgers.rutgers.edu (James Markley
(Jim))
Subject: 520 ST Stuff for sale
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
I have the following Atari equipment for sale.
All items were purchsed new about 3 years ago.
1x 520 ST - standard model w/ no upgrades -- $150
(mouse does not work - Wico "Command Control" joy included)
(TOS system software included of course)
1x SC1224 Color Monitor -- $150
2x SF354 3.5 in Disk Drive (singel sided) -- $ 35
1x SMM804 Dot Matrix Printer -- $ 50
OR, the whole package is yours for $400. or b/o
The person who purchses the 520 ST also get my small assortment of
software, ie a word processor package (Word Writer), a couple of
games, and a poster/banner maker. (Nothing to really get excited about
but I got to do something with the software.)
I don't have a good idea what the real value of these items are so if
you think I am asking too much, make me an offer. If I am not asking
enogh offer me more :-). I will sell to the highest bidder.
If I get the price I ask or better I pay shipping. Still have all
original boxes. If I get less we can negotiate.
-Jim
markley@grad1.cis.upenn.edu
*******************************************************************************
Jim Markley
graduate student in computer and information science
markley@grad1.cis.upenn.edu
------------------------------
Date: 10 Nov 91 06:54:46 GMT
From:
noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!gatech!uflorida!mailer.cc.fsu.edu!pipe!boy
d@arizona.edu (Mickey Boyd)
Subject: 8mhz ST = 16mhz 386
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
In article <291C022F.7817@ics.uci.edu>, jvance@ics.uci.edu (Joachim Vance)
writes:
>In article <1991Nov8.095052.24727@doug.cae.wisc.edu> carter@cae.wisc.edu
(Gregory Carter) writes:
>>
>>The PC's 386/486 machines are actually vastly under rated machines simply
>>because they are stuck running DOS applications.
>>
> So, what applications are they supposed to run to take advantage of
>their speed? Windows? From what I hear, Windows just slows things
>down more. Unix maybe? But I'm confused. It's supposed to be all
>those great DOS and Windows applications that make 386/486 compatibles
>so great, but these are the same applications that make the machines
>under rated. What good is the power of a machine if the applications
>that make it useful and advantageous to own can't take advantage of
>the machine's power.
Heehee, you could always get MS-DOS 5.0, which gives you the horrendous
ability to stick your TSR's and stuff above the first 640k, thus giving
you a bigger chunk (of the 640k) to work with. Real 90's stuff here.
Actually, I can answer your question. I have seen MACH running on 386's,
and it is very nice. Zippy is a word that comes to mind, although I have
not tried any multi-user stuff. Of course, since MACH is a completely
different OS it does not try to follow any guidelines written in 1979
(well, it is a Unix clone circa 1970, but you know what I mean). It also
has the freedom to use linear addressing full time.
Another interesting point is that the 80x86 assembly is a real pain to
optomize, due to several zillion special case register restrictions. On
the other hand, there are many many companies out there working furiously
to optomize such code. My point is that there is nothing really magical
about the Intel chips, they just happen to be used in IBM PC compatibles.
In terms of raw processing power, a 386SX could probably be driven faster
than a 68000 (the difference should not be all that big though, none of this
"blowing out of the water" business). However, a combination of slow video,
segmented addressing, and circa 1980 DOS standards restrict the machine
enough to make them "slower" than ST's in many respects. Windows can run
pretty fast on a 386SX (it is actually more of a memory hog than a CPU
hog, 4 to 6 mb of RAM speed things up considerably). The real point here is
that this is an apples and oranges comparison. Windows is a bloated
monstrosity compared to the simplicity and elegance of ST GEM or Neodesk
(this is undoubtably to make it apple-proof). It is also running on top of
another OS, which brings more weirdness into play. PC compatibles receive
more money and time from more companies, thus resulting in lots and lots
of software. This implies a better selection of "main stream" applications
(word processors, databases, etc), as well as a larger selection of "weird
applications". So, for a workhorse office machine or for a special
application, you might have more selections and be better supported with
a PC clone. On the other hand, for a personal home machine it really
comes down to a matter of taste (IMHO). I like the 70Hz paper white mono
screen for modeming and DTP, and I like games (with real sound). I just
seem to have more fun dinking with my ST than I do with the various PCs
(and one lone Amiga) that I have babysat or worked with. I have not found
myself to be hurting for software or support. I attribute this to
comp.sys.atari.st, Current Notes magazine, and atari.archive.umich.edu (plus
some really good commercial stuff, like Neodesk, Pagestream, UIS3, etc).
Currently, my upgrade plans are to get an X-terminal and a 34k modem for
some true Unix windowing at home (I am waiting for the price to drop, and
hopefully for the modems to get even faster). I also plan to keep my ST set
up right next to it.
The above is IMHO, direct flames elsewhere.
--
---------------------------------+-------------------------------------
Mickey R. Boyd | "Come to your senses professor
FSU Computer Science | Fernberg. You did not transcend
Technical Support Group | the time-space continuum. You
email: boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu | got drunk in a topless bar."
---------------------------------+-------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 10 Nov 91 07:06:31 GMT
From:
noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!gatech!uflorida!mailer.cc.fsu.edu!pipe!boy
d@arizona.edu (Mickey Boyd)
Subject: 8mhz ST = 16mhz 386
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
In article <5745@tamsun.TAMU.EDU>, n160ao@tamuts.tamu.edu (Mark Lehmann) writes:
>
>If I was going to invest $3000 in a computer system, I would put some device
>on it that would electrically shock any person attempting to run DOS or
>a DOS based program on it.
>
>Mark Lehmann
>tamuts.tamu.edu!n160ao
Heehee, I agree. However, us Unix folks are apparently insignificant
in number compared to the rabid masses of PC users out there. I wonder if
anyone will do a MACH port for the TT? It should really crank on that
machine, fast video, DMA and all. Perhaps Atari should look into this? A
kind of NeXT like strategy, including a bunch of good quality PD stuff with
the machine along with a small fast MACH kernel . . .
--
---------------------------------+-------------------------------------
Mickey R. Boyd | "Come to your senses professor
FSU Computer Science | Fernberg. You did not transcend
Technical Support Group | the time-space continuum. You
email: boyd@nu.cs.fsu.edu | got drunk in a topless bar."
---------------------------------+-------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 12 Nov 91 16:09:15 GMT
From: mcsun!uknet!dcl-cs!gdt!aber!mhr@uunet.uu.net (Michael Richards)
Subject: AMIGA IFF FILES TO NEOCHROME / DEGAS FORMAT
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
Dear All.
Hope this is the right group, since I'm not a regular reader of this group can
any replies be via email?
Does anyone know a good utility that will transfer Amiga IFF graphics files
into NeoChrome or Dega Elite graphics files. The Amiga files are already 16
colours so no need to worry about the number of bit planes. It isn't important
whether the program runs on either the ST or the Amiga.
If its PD can you supply either a PD library (remember I'm in the UK) or an
FTP site.
Much appreciated, and thanks for your time.
Mike.
--
E mhr@uk.ac.aber (UK) \S Mike Richards \V
M mhr@cs.aber.ac.uk (inet)\N Dept of Computer Science \O +44
A ...!mcsun!ukc!aber-mhr \A University College of Wales,\I 970 622449
I (uucp) \I Aberyswyth, Dyfed. \C
------------------------------
Date: 12 Nov 91 15:08:16 GMT
From:
noao!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!gatech!bloom-beacon!eru!hagbard!sunic!dkuu
g!aud.dk!soren@arizona.edu (Soeren Michelsen)
Subject: Computer benchmarking
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
I recently saw a discussion about benchmarks. So I'd like to drop a
few words on comparison between the Motorola MC680x0 series CPU's
and the Intel i80x86 CPU's. Since 1986 I've have had the chance to
test several different compilers for both machines and my conclusions
are *not* quite the same as those expressed by most others people.
I might be dead wrong but then again this is my experiences. My basic
test were aimed at the 68000 versus the 80286, the 80386 should perform
better at same clock rates but then it depends on the machine being
tested. Most 16 MHz 80286 PC's are faster than their 80386 counter parts.
The internal architecture of the 68000 shows a resemblance to the
VAX (Digital) CPU's, both have large (32 bit) general registers,
the 68000 has its register organized in 2 groups, data and address.
In order to fully utilize this chip one should try to keep frequently
used values inside the CPU since this is much faster than using memory.
The 80286 is better at memory <--> CPU acceses. On the other hand, the
80286 has an *awful* set of registers. They are *not* general and makes
programming the 80286 a lot harder than programming the 68000.
On top of this; the 80286 (as the 8086) has segment registers to allow
addressing a 1MB memory in 64K chunks. The 80286 actually has more
hardware and addressing modes than the 80286 but MS-DOS makes almost
no use of this fact (except for VDISK, EMS and hard disk caches).
Standards are indeed a pain in this respect.
The Dhrystone test consists of a meaningless set of functions, executed
repeatedly a number of times. The benchmark measures the number of
'dhrystones' performed per second. This test favors the Intel CPU's
since the 64K segment barrier is not crossed because no large global
data are accessed and the program is most often compiled using a small
code model (16 pointer and memory references). This is obviously to the
8086 advantage. The 68000 can make little use of its registers since the
Dhrystone test keeps entering and exiting functions, most compilers
trashes the registers here.
The test could be made more fair if a) the 8086 used a large code model,
b) the 68000 would be allow to make better use of its registers.
I tried this and the results are *quite* different. Most 8086 compilers
are some 25-30% slower when they switch to the large/huge code model.
To see how much the registers are worth to the 68000, try the Sieve test
with an array of 256K charaters flags (or integers)... the 8086 drops
DEAD here but the 68000 has no problems.
What I mean is: You can't compare these CPU's on the test seen in
magazines. They are too different. The 80286 seems to be better suited
to 'normal' applications and the 68000 performs best with +64K data
like graphics. Nothing beats the 680x0 series when it comes to software
graphics. It was never developer for small programs.
As a final note here's the 'official' numbers from the 'official'
DHRYSTONE source which is a C program (used to be an ADA program!).
The 8086 machine all use the large code model. Notice the difference
when using register/no registers:
Machine Microprocessor Operating Compiler Dhrystones/sec.
Type System No regs With regs
------------------------ ------------ ----------- -----------------
Apple IIe 65C02-1.02Mhz Apple Aztec CII 1.05 37 37
IBM pc/xt 8088-4.77Mhz Coherent 2.3.43 Mark Wiiliams 259 275
Atari ST 68000-8.0 MHz TOS Megamax C V1.0 900 1030
Compaq II 80286-8Mhz MSDOS 3.1 MS C 3.0 1351 1428
Atari ST 68000-8.0 MHz TOS Turbo C 2.0 2000 2000 (1)
IBM PC/AT 80286-7.5Mhz Venix/286 SVR2 cc 1159 1254
Turnkey 80386sx-16MHz MSDOS 3.30 Turbo c++ 1.0 3500 3500 (2)
Amdahl 5860 ?? UTS sysV cc 1.22 28735 28846 (3)
(1) The Turbo C compiler uses register whenever possible with
exellent results. This explains the difference between the
Megamax C compiler and the Turbo C compiler: registers are used!
(2) These are normal figures for 80386's running at 16 MHz.
(3) I recall the AMD29000 microprocessor at 32MHZ delivers some
+40000 dhrystones with a 8K cache.
If anyone are interrested I can upload/mail the DHRY.C source but since
it has been converted from ADA it is pretty ugly.
+-------+ +-------+
| ||| | Always look at the bright side of life! | ||| |
| / | \ | | / | \ |
+-------+-------------------+-----------------------------+-------+
| soren@tequila.vlsi.auc.dk | The expressed opionions are my OWN! |
+---------------------------+-------------------------------------+
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1991 14:40 EST
From: JOHNBARNES@ENH.NIST.GOV
Subject: FAX MOdem for ST
To: INfo-atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
There is a product called Joppa Fax for the ST computer line that has send
capability and comes with printer drivers for Calamus and Pagestream. The
product is available from Joppa Computer products here in the USA. I do not
know whether it works on European telephone lines.
The packages comes with a ZOOM MOdem with a proprietary ROM, so I doubt that
its software wil work with anyother modem.
The developer is working on the receive capability at this moment. No release
data promised.
------------------------------
Date: 12 Nov 91 17:12:02 GMT
From:
noao!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!descartes!dbshapco@arizona.edu
(D Brad Shapcott)
Subject: First Word and Star NP-10
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
If anyone has a printer configuration file that works for this printer under
First Word Plus or knows which printer the Star NP-10 should be compatible
with, could you fire some e-mail to this account.
If you have a working set-up, a brief description would help. Something more
than standard backspacing, of course.
Brad
------------------------------
Date: 12 Nov 91 16:42:21 GMT
From:
noao!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-s
tate.edu!udecc.engr.udayton.edu!blackbird.afit.af.mil!lonex.rl.af.mil!longj@ari
zona.edu (Jeffrey K. Long)
Subject: For Sale: OP[D[DPo[Drospero-C
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
For Sale, Prosero-C V1.14 for the Atari-ST..
I now use GCC whenever I need (albeit infrequently) a C-Compiler. i
Comes with excellent documentation and of course, the original disks.
Make me an offer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Capt Jeff Long Rome Laboratories, Griffiss AFB, NY
longj@lonex.rl.af.mil (preferred) Network Design Laboratory
jlong@cassiopeia.rl.af.mil (315)330-7751 or (DSN)587-7751
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Capt Jeff Long Rome Laboratories, Griffiss AFB, NY
longj@lonex.rl.af.mil (preferred) Network Design Laboratory
jlong@cassiopeia.rl.af.mil (315)330-7751 or (DSN)587-7751
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 91 10:57 CST
From: The only thing to fear is fearlessness <BAKAY1B@Meena.CC.URegina.CA>
Subject: Info-Atari16 Digest V91 #591
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
is Does anyone know about the new basketball game being made aboutby the
guy who made
Wayne Gretzky Hockey?
Also, is there anywhere that I can download NBA stats (either on the net or
with a modem), and does anyone know if there is ST software for running a
rotisserie basketball league?
TthanThanks,
Brook
------------------------------
Date: 11 Nov 91 18:22:32 GMT
From: infonode!ingr!b11!jmack@uunet.uu.net (Cery McCormick)
Subject: SCSI info needed
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
In article <1991Nov10.235248.28525@news.cs.brandeis.edu>,
acleasby@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Andrew Cleasby) writes:
> The info I need is: what is a SCSI terminator? Is it a jumper? What
> will happen if I try to use the drive without one?
>
> If I do need one, where am I likely to find one? (ie Electronics stores)
>
The SCSI terminators are resistor networks that go on both ends
of the SCSI bus. Since for SCSI, more than one device is allowed to
drive the same signals, when a signal is deasserted, it is not being
driven (open collector drivers). SCSI devices drive a signal by pulling
it low (towards 0v). SCSI devices don't actively deassert signals, they
just quit driving them. The terminator is a resistor network that has a
220ohm pullup to 5v, and a 330ohm pulldown to GND for each signal. This
is required so that the signals will deassert.
You probably have a SCSI terminator on your host adapter. You
also need to have one on the other end of the bus, on your drive. If
your cable is short, you can get away without it, although I wouldn't
recommend it.
Look on your drive. The terminators will be right next to the
cable connector. Either brightly colored DIP packages (usually yellow)
or SIP (single in-line) packages. If they are there, fine. If not, you
need to go to an electronics store and get 220/330 terminating resistor
'packs'. The package type is determined by the empty sockets on your
drive.
------------------------------
Date: 12 Nov 91 21:59:46 GMT
From: crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!mc4c+@pt.cs.cmu.edu (Mark Choi)
Subject: Spectre 128 and Translator One for sale
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
I still have the Spectre 128 for sale with ROMs.
$200
Translaotr One Mac disk reader
$75
mark
------------------------------
Date: 12 Nov 91 17:30:58 GMT
From: mcsun!unido!sbsvax!handl@uunet.uu.net (Ralf Handl)
Subject: Terminal program for TT
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
Hello,
I need a terminal program for the Atari TT with the following properties:
- runs on a TT with 1280 x 960 monitor
- runs inside a GEM-window, i.e. either creates its own or uses only
gemdos-calls so that its output can be redirected into a window by
MultiGEM
- vt100, vt2207bit or vt2208bit emulation
- integrated kermit for data transfer
If you know a terminal program with approximately matches these
requirements or all except the first but comes with sources, please
mail to me or post to this group.
Thank you in advance,
Ralf Handl
handl@cs.uni-sb.de
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1991 14:26 EST
From: JOHNBARNES@ENH.NIST.GOV
Subject: Uploading to VAX
To: INfo-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
I have used an ST to upload and download binary files to a couple of VAX
systems at rates ranging from 2400 to 19200 baud. I use KERMIT for this
because it permits nice batch uploads and downloads. It works fine with
binary files.
THe KERMIT that I prefer to use from the ST is the one embedded in UNiterm.
Purists wil lsnicker and say that Kermit is an archaic protocol. The systems
people on our VAX do not seem to know about zmodem and xmodem, so I find myself
forced to use Kermit. Of course DElphi supports zmodem and xmodem using VAX
systems, maybe you could check in the VAX forums there and see if there is any
thing to be gotten.
------------------------------
Date: 12 Nov 91 21:31:39 GMT
From: crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!mc4c+@pt.cs.cmu.edu (Mark Choi)
Subject: Video Toaster
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
Hey,
I used to work on the Amiga, and I harbour it no ill will. I was really
posting in regards to a thread here a while back from some overly
obsessed users who claimed the toaster conversion would never happen, at
all. I realize that Newtek "cheated" by just repackaging a 2000 with the
toaster, but several folk claimed this would not happen, ever, period.
Actually, I think the Amiga folks should be pissed that they now have to
pay so much for the toaster, when the IBM and Mac folks pay about the
same price, and get an Amiga thrown in to the deal. This all due to
Newteks price hikes.
Why do you need 24 bit boards, so you can do animations in your package
of choice, and see them on screen, before using the toaster.
mark
------------------------------
Date: 12 Nov 91 14:33:08 GMT
From:
noao!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi.oa
r.net!yfn.ysu.edu!ysub!psuvm!cunyvm!ndsuvm1!mtus5!jjmcwill@arizona.edu (Jeff
McWilliams)
Subject: WHAT IS MINT?
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
I don't mean to be a pest but I have been reading this group for about a week
now. I don't currently own an ST but I hope to get the money to get one
eventually. Funny thing is I have NEVER heard of MiNT in any magazine or
user-group newsletter. So what is it in brief? A unix workalike?
Does it do multitasking, and can it run regular ST programs through it?
Jeff McWilliams
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 NOV 91 13:54:23 BST
From: MCSSECKJ@vaxb.cc.dundee-tech.ac.uk
To: Info-Atari16 <@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk:Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu>
Hi Folks in Net land ....
I don't know if this will get through, but here goes...
Here is a good joke for you Mega STE owners around the world ....
Do you know that the UK is still waiting for the proper launch of the Mega STE?
And although a shipment came in last week, it only comprised of Mega STE 1,
that is no hard disk and 1 meg of memory, and all the suppliers are fighting
to get their share before these run out.
Want to know the best joke of the day ??? There is a problem with the
modulators .... They are the Spanish version !!!! Great if you live in Spain
I suppose ...
We in the UK don't know whether to laugh or cry ... with no stocks of 1040STE's
left, this is going to be an interesting Christmas. I realise the UK market
is viewed as games driven, but this is no longer a joke.
._____. ........................................................ ._____.
| \ / | Craig Jones |JANET| mcsseckj@uk.ac.dct.cc.vaxb | \ / |
| X | Software Eng. | X |
| / \ | DIT, Dundee, UK. | / \ |
'%%%%%' %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% '%%%%%'
"The latest batches of STE's are being manufactured in China;
UK specification Mega STE's are being delivered from Outer
Mongolia on the backs of blind donkeys." - ST Applications.
------------------------------
End of Info-Atari16 Digest
******************************
