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Info-Atari16 Digest Vol. 91 Issue 623
Info-Atari16 Digest Thu, 28 Nov 91 Volume 91 : Issue 623
Today's Topics:
*.lst files? What kind of basic???
Atari ST DEAD ?
Atari Sys 5 Unix- any owners out there? (2 msgs)
Binkley ST ?
coming soon: Son of Welcome ...
GFA Basic WANTED
GNU C - What do I *really* need to use it? (2 msgs)
InterNet to FidoNet
NEED SM124
networking the STs
PageStream 2.1
QuickST sales
Wanted: MWC, Personal Paal & GFA Basic
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 28 Nov 91 04:15:55 GMT
From: agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!wsu-cs!vela!swood@ames.arpa ( EVENSONG)
Subject: *.lst files? What kind of basic???
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
I have not really done any basic work on the ST, other than with
the interpretive version that comes with the original package. I ran into
some source code the other day, however for a version of uucico for the
ST that is written in what appears to be basic and I was wondering if
anyone knew what it might be, or perhaps if someone could compile my
modified version for me? The file has a suffix of .lst and has no line
numbers. Anyway, if anyone can help me out, I would appreciate it...
swood
--
---- Insert favorite .signature here ---- | swood@argo.acs.oakland.edu
| swood@vela.acs.oakland.edu
Bitnet: swood@Oakland | swood@unix.secs.oakland.edu
UUCP: ...!uunet!umich!{vela, argo, unix, nucleus}!swood
------------------------------
Date: 28 Nov 91 11:11:12 GMT
From: mcsun!uknet!warwick!kingpol!cs_a206@uunet.uu.net (Richard Smart)
Subject: Atari ST DEAD ?
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
I am supprised that the Atari st has not died for the more
favourable Amiga 500 series. The atari is such a bad machine
that I am supprised people buy it !!!
Atari St's are great for the following functions.
> Door Wedges
> Sleeping Policemen
> Toilet Paper Holders
> A 512K Printer Buffer
> A Dust Absorber
> A Source Of Electronics for your HAIRDRYER ?
> A Sign Of Poverty
> A Tax Dodger
p.s.
Q > what is the differance between the ST and the SPECTRUM ?
A > The midi ports !!!
Should ST's be put in the newsgroup rec.humor instead because they are all
jokes.
------------------------------
Date: 27 Nov 91 21:45:33 GMT
From: uvm-gen!griffin!pegram@uunet.uu.net (Robert B. Pegram)
Subject: Atari Sys 5 Unix- any owners out there?
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
From article <1991Nov27.200158.4490@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>, by
hyc@hanauma.jpl.nasa.gov (Howard Chu):
Howard rebuts Rich Covert effectively and ends......
> There's a company called Cygnus that provides commercial support for the
> GNU tools. This complaint is groundless.
>>
>>But hay, pay out the $6 to $8 grand that an Atari Sys V development
>>system would cost. I would rather pay the same bucks and buy a Mac IIFX
>>with Apple's A/UX. At least I know Apple will be around for awhile!!
>
> Um... Yeah. Apple A/UX sucks. The Mac //fx had (has?) serious motherboard
> design flaws, making its (lack-of) reliability rival that of the original
> thin Macs. Not to mention the slowness of the //fx memory and I/O buses.
> You carp about the TT's 16 MHz bus not being fast enough for an I/O
> intensive Unix system. The //fx doesn't have DMA SCSI. The main RAM is
> accessed with *9* wait states. No burst mode access to RAM. That nice 40 MHz
> processor is being slowed to an effective 11.4 MHz due to memory latency.
> (Now you know why so many 3rd party companies are making $$$ selling
> puny little 64K cache cards for the Macs...) A //fx would make a laughable
> Unix machine.
> --
> -- Howard Chu @ Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Howard, no more please! I'll bust a gut! I haven't laughed
so much over a posting for a LONG time 8-). I knew some of what you
point out, (lack of DMA and flakey Un*x) but not the whole picture.
Sure, other Macs are better than that particular overated toy for
people with more money than computer savvy (to be somewhat charitable
about it 8-), but what a joke! Remember too folks, Macs have only
recently gotten the capability to run any sort of decent "shell
script" (dunno what Apple would call that 8-) under the finder, SYS
7.0X is too slow for Mac classics (and Spectres too, oh well), and the
Nubus usually runs at 10Mhz synchronous, not quite at processor speed,
hmmm? Note: I'm getting a little out of my depth here, possibly the
bus bursts to twice that speed. I believe that several 030 Macs have
non 32-bit clean ROMS, and Apple is not issuing new 32-bit clean ROMs
even for those machines where you *can* replace them (and you thought
Atari was bad 8-). Perhaps someone thought that only big ole IBM was
going to benefit from the unlikely alliance announced recently?
Seriously, we all really need a new generation of machines,
but unfortunately, they have to run most all the old stuff. It's an
argument for hairy virtual machine OSes (as OS/2 2.0 is purported to
be) or for people to start putting out the source code along with
their software opuses. Richard Stallman isn't crazy after all eh?
Yipes, I guess I'm too near the border! 8-) 8-) I can really see a
market for buying up the source and licenses for old, but beloved
programs, and fixing them up, or even porting them over to the latest
machine. In my case, I'd fix the cntrl-E bug in WordUP real fast!
(Hope Atari eventually rereleases it with a heavy dose of SPEED and
FSM GDOS, but I'm not holding my breath 8-).
On the other hand, an STFM or STE is a very practical home
machine, especially in Europe, where SCART connectors are available.
Right now, in the U.S.A., available commercial software is cheap and of
fair quality, there's just not much of it! Buy a mono monitor for
$150 or so (or the Nec Greyscale monitor mentioned recently), a 520STE
for $350, and maybe a new Supra 50Meg hard drive from EABCO for $400,
(I know, STEs and Supra host adaptors don't always get along) total
is $900, and if you don't need one or more of these things, so much
the better. Oh yeah, better get at least 2Megs of Ram SIMMs for %$80,
total $980. Or instead, you could go for a mega STe for just a little
bit more. I happen to think that it beats out the alternatives - a
cheap Mac (small screen), a cheap Amiga (those probably still flicker
8-) or a cheap 386SX clone. (I really hate that stupid 640K barrier!
you can get around it with $$$$ for your own stuff, but not for every
program you run, like on an ST 8-). That joke of an IBM home machine,
the 286 PS1 isn't even in the running! Unfortunately, STes and such are
probably still not in Toys R us or other mass market outlets, where
they belong now, nor will Atari be able to make them in enough numbers
to put them there for real (see I'm a realist - sometimes 8-).
Guess I had to get that off of my chest stepping off soap box now 8-)8-).
Bob Pegram
--
pegram@uvm.edu
or
..!uvm-gen!pegram
------------------------------
Date: 27 Nov 91 16:23:28 GMT
From:
noao!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!ox.com!umich!sharkey!wybbs!
therip!FredGate@arizona.edu (Rod Fulk)
Subject: Atari Sys 5 Unix- any owners out there?
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
RC> In article <1991Nov25.043247.3286@cs.wayne.edu>
RC> pbh@jake.cc.wayne.edu (Patrick Haggood) writes:
>I just got back from the ATARI show in Chicago,; got to see the Atari
>Unix box up close and personal. Let me tell you; IT IS REAL PRETTY!
>I have a few questions for any owners of this machine out there, and
>would appreciate corresponding with you about developing X applications
>on this machine. Please email me either here or at the GENIE address
>below. Thanks in advance.
>
>--
>Genie - P.HAGGOOD2 Internet -
>pbh@jake.cc.wayne.edu
>PRODIGY - Not anymore, Jackson. Bitnet - phaggoo@waynest1
>Phone - (313) 577-0669
>Voice - "HEY, YOU WITH THE BAGGY PANTS!"
RC> I have developed under a half dozen different UNIX
RC> machines in the lasst ten years. All the way back to
RC> the original AT&T 3B2 when I worked at Bell Labs.
RC> I have to wonder just how serious a UNIX workstation is
RC> if it is from Atari.
In my unix class we used one of those 3b2's and it had an 80 meg HD on it.. With
8 users on it you could ALMOST work on it.. I have a system local to me that is
running a 25 mhz '386 with non-dma input and like 4meg memory or maybe a little
more. His system is very responsive. You can't even tell when 5 users are on
it. I am sure with a few more users it would probly be the same result.
RC> First, the TT is a bit underpowered seeing as how it is basically just
RC> a 16MHz 68030. Oh I know the CPU is running at 32MHz but the I/O buss
RC> is still 16MHz and UNIX is VERY I/O intensive (can you
RC> say disk swapping?).
Underpowered?? a 16mhz 68030 would work at the speed of a 25mhz '486 roughly.
Also realize that the fast memory on the tt is all at 33mhz. This also includes
DMA scsi access to the fast memory.. The graphics, keyboard and such might be
at 16mhz but from what I understand the 68030 and the scsi connector are both
tied to fast memory and can really fly. (THey are not the fastest 68030
machines out there.. Recall that you can expand a mega up to past TT speeds
with the SST board and such.. Those machines shou
ld be able to run unix also.) My understanding is that most of the disk swapping
is due to needing more memory and the disk is used instead of normal memory..
The TT has many BIG memory upgrades. I have seen people mention they have
products to add 10 meg of ST memory (Same as CHIP memory) and 32 meg of TT ram
(Or FAST ram.) With one of these upgrades the machine should excel.
RC> Also, their UNIX X Windows pack requires the $1,000 monochrome monitor
RC> as the native TT color resolutions aren't high enough to support decent
RC> X Windows.
Maybe retail but with discounting the monitor should be ALOT less. (PS, try
buying a monitor for ANY computer with that type of resolution... Its gonna
cost ya.. ON a mac it would be over $3k to add such a screen.)
By thhe way.. since when is 640x480x16 not enough? (Course I never have used
xwindows but I understand how they work..) You can also get one of the $800
graphics boards that give you 24bits of color (not sure on the size of screens
but should be able to use the standard color monitor in most cases.)
RC> And Atari is shipping the GNU compilers, which while excellent are NOT
RC> commerically supported compilers. Try getting technical support if the
RC> compiler breaks and you don't have access to USENET. Do you want to spend
RC> your precious development time debugging your development tools or
RC> writing your project? Thats why you need professional, commerically
RC> supported compilers and debuggers.
A unix machine without access to usenet? Unless the person bough unix for his
own personal use EVERYONE using unix SHOULD be tied into usenet. (If
bussinesses can afford to set someone up to run unix for them and maintain it
then the cost in accessing usenet should be no big deal. YOu can call to any
one of many sites and gather mail. Its NOT that big a deal as long as the unix
machine has a modem available. (We have dozens of unix machines in my area that
I am aware of. Only a couple are not tied into use
net and the system administrators of those have access to public systems with
usenet. And if they wanted to add usenet support they could.)
RC> But hay, pay out the $6 to $8 grand that an Atari Sys V development
RC> system would cost. I would rather pay the same bucks and buy a Mac IIFX
RC> with Apple's A/UX. At least I know Apple will be around for awhile!!
If you use comparible prices for comparable computers you would pay like $8k for
a full fledged Atari machine and a little over double that for a mac...
As to support, you seriously think apple gives you that good of support?
I worked for a company that got everything for the mac they could.
However they were blocked out of any phone support. In order to get phone
support you have to spend $700 to be a developer (PLus some annual maintanence
fee I believe.) and you have to have access to Alink. (WHich costs an arm and a
leg per hour.) Phone support is non-existant for their machine.
And to remain a developer you have to sell a product within two years..
Atleast with atari you can pay a small fee once and as long as you produce
a commercial program every once in a while your fine. Or you can pay a small fee
and a smaller fee for updates every year and still have dirrect access to them
on GEnie. You can ALSO call the people who wrote the OS dirrectly if you
have a really serious need for something...
Try THAT with apple.
* Origin: The R.I.P. (616)235-2313 [HST] (1:228/24)
------------------------------
Date: 28 Nov 91 01:14:16 GMT
From: mcsun!uknet!slxsys!ibmpcug!demon!news@uunet.uu.net (Steven Green)
Subject: Binkley ST ?
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
Now on 2.41 beta17 :-)
- STeVeN (FidoNet 2:252/25, NeST 90:1004/0)
------------------------------
Date: 27 Nov 91 22:24:37 GMT
From: sas!mozart.unx.sas.com!wagner.unx.sas.com!egon.unx.sas.com!snoret@mcnc.org
(Rick Tatem)
Subject: coming soon: Son of Welcome ...
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
In article <1991Nov27.122541.1@lapis.labmed.umn.edu>
davidli@lapis.labmed.umn.edu writes:
>Just a quick note to let all of you know that a =New= +improved+ Son of Welcome
>to Comp.Sys.Atari.ST will be arriving at your local newsgroup Real Soon Now.
>
>:-)
>
>By the way, if any of you have hints, tips, questions-and-answers, stupid ST
>tricks (did I miss anything?) which you would like to see appear in this
>International Frequently-Asked-Questions List, please send them to me, quickly!
>
Ok...
How about tips on setting up directory structures for the most
often used applications? What I mean is, how does a new user
go about setting up his hard drive directories in order to
get the most out of gulam, sozobon C, mint, etc? Tips on
things to include in an AUTO folder would help, also.
(can you tell I need help ? :)
Just a thought...
Rick Tatem __-__ _
snoret@unx.sas.com =========@ ============ *#__===___
UNIX Support ___\\____ / /_ `'%%%%%%%%*#*--(0)---\
SAS Institute, Inc. \______________{ @* @
------------------------------
Date: 28 Nov 91 04:33:08 GMT
From:
noao!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!usenet.i
ns.cwru.edu!wsu-cs!vela!swood@arizona.edu ( EVENSONG)
Subject: GFA Basic WANTED
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
Subject says it. I am looking for a version of GFA basic, as new as
possible... (if you did not see in my previous posting, I think that
is what I am after - after all, it is about time that I fill out my
compiler collection)
swood
--
---- Insert favorite .signature here ---- | swood@argo.acs.oakland.edu
| swood@vela.acs.oakland.edu
Bitnet: swood@Oakland | swood@unix.secs.oakland.edu
UUCP: ...!uunet!umich!{vela, argo, unix, nucleus}!swood
------------------------------
Date: 28 Nov 91 02:23:13 GMT
From: ub!@rutgers.rutgers.edu (Howard Chu)
Subject: GNU C - What do I *really* need to use it?
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
In article <5s83BB1w164w@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca> mforget@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca
(Michel Forget) writes:
>Hello,
Howdy
>
>I will soon be buying a 1040STe with four megabytes of RAM, and I was
>wondering if this would be suitable to run the gNU C software package.
Sounds great.
>The computer will have an AdSpeed STe in it, as well. I have a 30
>Megabyte hard drive, of which I use about 10 megs. Would this be enough
>to use the package? I've heard that it is big, but I can't see the
Sounds really great. More than enough to run GCC or most any other
application. You're only talking about 3-4 meg of space for GCC and
headers and library files. With 4 meg of RAM, you can also afford a
hefty RAM disk or cache (I'd say you can get great gains from 1 meg of
RAM disk/cache combo. Header files, libraries, a couple executables on
a RAM disk...)
>package itself taking up 20 Megabytes of space on the HD. I also use
>Data Diet, with a compression rate of about 40-45% overall, so that might
>ease the burden alot. Also, where does one send away to get the package?
>I saw an address once upon a time, but I can't remember it and don't know
>if it is still valid. I also remember that a person had to send nineteen
>disks as well. I *hope* they meant single sided...:)
Hm.... Your best bet is with ftp, and the procedure is described in the
monthly posting in this group, so I won't rehash it here.
I'm quite bummed that my Ultradisk doesn't work with my STe. I use it on my
Mega-4 instead. A 4 meg RAMdisk holds everything I need - complete compiler,
shell, make, & other tools, with space for a large /tmp directory. The mind
reels, thinking of what one could accomplish with that 12M upgrade...
--
-- Howard Chu @ Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
------------------------------
Date: 27 Nov 91 23:13:29 GMT
From: gatech!uflorida!travis!jgj@uunet.uu.net (Jeff Jackson)
Subject: GNU C - What do I *really* need to use it?
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
Hopefully the system won't crash this time. ;-(
Gcc is on atari.archive.umich.edu under /atari/gnustuff/tos. It was
just reorganized, so I'm not going to try to list files. Basically,
you'lll need the binaries, the libraries, and the include files.
These are in several zoo archives. The filenames should be more or
less obvious. If you have trouble, send me mail and I'll try to help.
You also need a shell. I'll describe three possibilities. There are
others.
gulam plus unixtkit. Gulam is a neat csh like shell with micro emacs
built in. That plus unixtkit gives you a good set of unix tools, but
your stuck with TOS filenames (8+3 characters)(although they are in
lower case at least).
unixmode bash + futils_jgj. My favorite. Since you say you are
limited on disk space, the following one isn't practical for you
probably. UNIXMODE is long and mixed case filename emulation done in
the libraries. If the name can't be automatically translated between
a TOS and UNIX style name, a magic file called .dir contains the
mapping and the libraries in /atari/gnustuff/tos do the translating
behind your back. It works great, although it would be better to
do it in a TSR (which I'm working on).
mint bash + futils_ers. With MiNT (the multitasking MiNT is Not TOS)
you can use Minix file systems. I'm not familiar with this much, plus
since my disk space is not infinite, I prefer to have it all under one
file system. There are also MiNT libraries if you want programs that
take full advantage of MiNT, though the "standard" libraries do have
MiNT bindings.
My whole setup right now is about 12Mb, although I have tons of gnu
utilities plus some pd stuff (some of which is in misc1.zoo under
futils).
--
============================================================================
Jeffrey Glen Jackson _|_Satan jeered, "You're dead meat Jesus, I'm gonna
jgj@ssd.csd.harris.com | bust you up tonight."
x5120 | Jesus said, "Go ahead, make my day."
%%%%%%%%% -- Carman, "The Champion"
------------------------------
Date: 26 Nov 91 22:23:57 GMT
From: olivea!isc-br!ewu!caude@ames.arpa (Chuck Aude)
Subject: InterNet to FidoNet
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
About a week ago some posted a message about sending Email to an InterNet
address via FidoNet. I have two more questions on that topic:
1) Is it possible to post to InterNet Newsgroups (ie comp.sys.atari.st) via
FidoNet using the same process.
2) Is it possible to send EMail to a FidoNet address via InterNet?
Chuck Aude
------------------------------
Date: 27 Nov 91 22:59:51 GMT
From: ub!csn!boulder!ucsu!horton.Colorado.EDU!chuj@rutgers.rutgers.edu (CHU
JEFFREY)
Subject: NEED SM124
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
Hello,
I need a ATARI SM124 monitor, so if anyone has any places
I can order from or if you have a sm124 ready to get rid of. Please
contact me.
Jeff
chuj@horton.colorado.edu
chuj@spot.colorado.edu
------------------------------
Date: 28 Nov 91 06:33:51 GMT
From:
noao!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!hanauma.jpl.nasa.gov!hyc@a
rizona.edu (Howard Chu)
Subject: networking the STs
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
The serial ports can be operated at localtalk speed, but there isn't any
software that I know of that will speak Appletalk protocols. Public domain
Unix software exists that handles the protocols, so it wouldn't be too tough
to get code running for it on the STe/TT.
I also have a public domain NFS server & client source, but I haven't seen
anyone do much with it.
If you just want to use TOS, you can create client-side appletalk and NFS
code pretty simply; to get server capability would require something like
MiNT.
At any rate, nothing plug'n'play exists as yet.
--
-- Howard Chu @ Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
------------------------------
Date: 26 Nov 91 23:04:20 GMT
From: enterprise.noarl.navy.mil!fox@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Dan Fox)
Subject: PageStream 2.1
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
I just bought a copy of PGS2.1 and have been completely unable to
get it to print successfully to the Atari SLM804 laser printer.
There was some recent discussion about this on the net and I was
hoping someone who's been having the same problem could give
me some help.
I *did* call the SoftLogic BBS and downloaded the new SLM and
PostScript drivers, which I believe was the net-answer to
the problems reported earlier. Also, I did completely power off
and on for several tests using different fonts, drivers, etc
'just in case'.
USING SLM DRIVER (w/ Diablo emulator installed)
Using the new driver, the first *half* of the page comes out fine,
regardless of fonts or other page content. About in the middle of the
page, there is some garbled, shifted half-line or so and then the
bottom half of the page is blank.
Even though the document is only 1 page long, the 'PRINTING' dialog box
then goes on to say it is 'creating page 1' (again) and prints the same
bad page again... (at which point I kill it).
USING ULTRASCRIPT
Using the new PostScript driver, the output is saved to disk. Running
UltraScript gives an error about an offending command ("if"). Bringing
this file to work, it won't print on our QMS printer either. *BUT*
previewing the file using GhostScript on the Sun *WORKS*!!! What's
going on here???
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I bought the SLM a few years ago, and still have the original
Diablo emulator (version 1.1) and UltraScript (version??). Do
the drivers in PageStream require more recent versions of these
programs maybe??? Can you run the SLM directly with only 2MB
of memory? I don't have a problem running TeX or other programs
for the laser printer... In PageStream though, the HELP button
to bring up the current free space, etc says:
program free space: 820964
system free: 27870
doc. size 5928
objects 4
That doesn't look like enough free space to run the laser printer...
*Every* other AUTO and ACC program is de-activated except for
the Diablo.
Thanks in advance for any help...
[I'm also calling softlogic every hour or so, but their line is
busy...]
------------------------------
Date: 27 Nov 91 06:21:12 GMT
From:
noao!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!ox.com!umich!sharkey!wybbs!
therip!FredGate@arizona.edu (Rod Fulk)
Subject: QuickST sales
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
Darek you ARE a turd.
You will fit right in with the microsoft mentality.
You know damn well the "Turd" statement had nothing to do with your idea that
selling atari software is profitable.
It was how you said it and how you were glad you were able to siphen the ST
market while it was there and such.
Get a life.
You really are no better then anyone else.
Honest.
PS, you don't drown when it rains do you?
* Origin: The R.I.P. (616)235-2313 [HST] (1:228/24)
------------------------------
Date: 28 Nov 91 07:11:41 GMT
From:
noao!asuvax!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!usenet.i
ns.cwru.edu!wsu-cs!vela!swood@arizona.edu ( EVENSONG)
Subject: Wanted: MWC, Personal Paal & GFA Basic
To: Info-Atari16@naucse.cse.nau.edu
With the Xmas season in the air, I feel that it is time to round out
my language collection once and for all. If anyone has the above listed
languages and would like to get rid of them, please email me. I would
prefer to get them all from one source, and as new as possible, or at least
get a registerable version so that I can upgrade to the newest version.
thanks
swood
--
---- Insert favorite .signature here ---- | swood@argo.acs.oakland.edu
| swood@vela.acs.oakland.edu
Bitnet: swood@Oakland | swood@unix.secs.oakland.edu
UUCP: ...!uunet!umich!{vela, argo, unix, nucleus}!swood
------------------------------
End of Info-Atari16 Digest
******************************
