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Info-Atari16 Digest Vol. 89 Issue 636
INFO-ATARI16 Digest Sat, 11 Nov 89 Volume 89 : Issue 636
Today's Topics:
Atari ST Multitasking/Multiuser OSs
Federated sale
JIL CAD requests
questions, questions, questions
Spectre and other Mac emulators
TT vs 386 boxes and Apples...
Unix for St, (MTC-Shell, etc.)
unix on the TT
Want a fast Atari ST...how about a '030 chip?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 11 Nov 89 21:13:32 GMT
From:
mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!torsqnt!hybrid!spocom!gng@tut.cis.ohio-state.ed
u
Subject: Atari ST Multitasking/Multiuser OSs
(I'll admit, this may be long for a summary, yet there's just so much basic
information for each system...that...well...you know...arrgh :-)
This summary of Atari ST multitasking multiuser operating systems includes
quotes and other informative aspects from the users themselves.
(I may have edited some quotes and such for space purposes.)
Thanks to: attctc.Dallas.TX.US!jdoss@wuarchive.uucp (Joe Doss)
(for Minix/ST information)
jclark@ucsd.edu (John Clark)
avy@gkcl.ists.ca (Avygdor Moise)
(both for OS-9/68000 information)
and to myself for MT C-Shell information :-)
Note: Hmm...only three people responded to my posting - did I post it at a
bad time, or is it because that there really aren't many ST users out there
that use multi-OSs? C'mon people, enough of this 'bashing' on the ST and
whatnot - wake up and smell the coffee! The multi-OSs are available out there
for the ST - It used to take a bit of searching before you could find one, but
look now - they're here, and they work - and if you still feel like bashing
the ST without any regard as to the 'now' availability of these fine ST-based
multi-OSs, then you don't know the great things that you're missing out on...
(Email to me if you happen to use a multi-OS.)
MINIX/ST version 1.1 (herein referred to as 'Minix')
--------------------
(Joe Doss has been using Minix for eleven months.)
Minix is both multiuser and multitasking. A minimal setup for Minix would be
a 520ST with a SSDD drive. A more usual one would be a 1040ST/20meg hd.
And for those power-hungry users, a Mega 4 with a 100meg should suffice quite
nicely.
Almost anything written for Version 7 Unix runs without changes. Programs that
take advantage of newer features in System V or BSD are sometimes difficult to
port. It is also slow, compared to other OS's and it doesn't come with all
the standard Unix utilities.
Minix has good Unix compatibility (Joe gave it a 9/10 rating for that), and
the source code to the entire OS comes with it, so changes and improvements
are easy. Minix is well supported on Usenet in the comp.os.minix group, and
improvements and new utilities are constantly posted there.
Minix is written by Andrew Tanenbaum (ast@cs.vu.nl)
Info is available from: Prentice-Hall Inc., Englewood Cliffs, NJ 07632
Suggested price is $79.95 US
MT C-Shell version 1.20 (herein referred to as 'MTcsh')
-----------------------
(George Ng has used MT C-Shell for three years.)
MTcsh is a multitasking/multiuser add-on to TOS. It requires a minimal
configuration of a 1040ST with a DSDD drive. With TOS/GEM programs taking
up memory space while multitasking, it would be more wise to get a Mega 4
with 60megs+, and probably other addons like speedup programs and hardware
accelerators (could apply to other OSs also).
MTcsh strives for compatibility with both TOS and with Unix. With the
appropriate support software, most Unix applications can be ported over to
MTcsh (my personal Unix compatibility rating - 7.5-8/10).
By keeping compatibility with TOS/GEM programs, much of the software already
written is still useful under this multi-OS environment. There is some
disadvantage to this because some software isn't written in mind for MTcsh,
so it might sooner or later crash under MTcsh. Also, since MTcsh is more
TOS than Unix, the deficiencies of TOS are also kept - twelve character
filenames and "\" filename separator for changing directories is still used,
rather than the longer Unix filenames and "/".
(Things to keep in mind when porting Unix stuff over to the MTcsh.)
Yet MTcsh is still quite reliable, has a lot of software designed especially
for it (UUCP, Visual Shell interface, etc) so it is able to approach the
functionality of Unix on a much smaller scale. Support from the company is
excellent.
MTcsh is $129.95 US and is available from:
Beckemeyer Development Tools, 478 Santa Clara Ave., Oakland, CA 94610
415-452-1129 (voice), 415-452-4792 (bbs),
david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer)
OS-9/68000 version 2.3 (herein referred to as 'OS-9')
----------------------
(John Clark has used OS-9 for two years, while Avygdor Moise has used it for
seven years, and with three years on the Atari ST version.)
OS-9 is both multitasking and multiuser. It can run on a 520ST with a SSDD
drive, but works best with a 20meg to 30meg hd, and with maybe 2 megs of RAM.
For Unix compatibility, vanilla flavored C code is usually ok to port to OS-9.
There is a PD/Shareware "unix" support library which has more of the typical
'Unix SYSV/BSD" functions. But any Unix code which has 'fork' or 'vfork' is
dead. But as John explains, it "can be revived by major shock treatment". :-)
Avygdor mentions that on the C level, it's "99.9 compatible" with Unix, while
on the OS level, it's "1:1 correspondence, but not directly comparable".
There is no, virtual memory management (for 68020/PMMU, 68030). As mentioned
before, you would probably need to supplement the Microware Lib's with PD
stuff in order to port Unix code more "easily". The command shell stinks, but
there's hope, and at the moment, there's not enough user utilities.
OS-9 is cheaper than Unix, and its drivers/low level OS interface are simpler.
Drivers can be dynamically loaded and unloaded (need to be loaded before and
during use). OS-9 is also used for CD-I, Computer Disk Interactive. This is
a CD-ROM with programs to access the data. The idea is a box with all the
data, programs, and processor available cheap enough to be purchased by the
large consumer electronic buying public.
Overall, OS-9 has the Unix feeling, it has rommable code, it's different, it
operates in real time, and of course its small, fast, and simple.
OS-9 is a good solid OS, and it never crashes the system.
A very worthwhile, solid development tool.
OS-9 is available from:
Microware, 1900 N.W. 114th St. Des Moines Iowa, 50332, (515)-224-1929
(West Cost Sales Office (408)-980-0201)
Prices:
$150 US for "OS-9 Personal" (only has BASIC)
$400-$600 US for "OS-9 Professional" (has C and assemblers, linkers, etc).
--
George Ng (Computer Science, Univ. of Toronto) | "Sure, I would like Canadian
UUCP: uunet!mnetor!?becker,hybrid?!spocom!gng | winters too...if it weren't
or utgpu!ncrcan!ziebmef!spocom!gng | for the weather."
------------------------------
Date: 11 Nov 89 19:38:26 GMT
From: thelake!steve@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu (Steve Yelvington)
Subject: Federated sale
According to the Associated Press, Atari Corp. has agreed to sell 26
of its Federated Group consumer electronics stores to Silo Inc., a U.S.
electronics retailer. The agreement covers 21 Federated stores in Los
Angeles and Orange counties and five in San Diego. The price was not
announced. The article said Atari is still trying to sell 14 remaining
stores in Texas, Kansas and Arizona. Federated had 91 stores when Atari
bought the group.
-- Steve Yelvington, up at the lake in Minnesota
... pwcs.StPaul.GOV!stag!thelake!steve (UUCP)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1989 15:52 EST
From: Greg Csullog <01659%AECLCR.BITNET@Forsythe.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: JIL CAD requests
In response to requests for JIL CAD info, please wait a few days while I
track down our resident expert in JIL CAD.
------------------------------
Date: 11 Nov 89 17:03:29 GMT
From: portal!cup.portal.com!buggs@uunet.uu.net (William Edward JuneJr)
Subject: questions, questions, questions
>I was not aware that ST TERM had been released into the Public Domain.
Me either!
>Last I heard, it was NOT Public Domain, but was not commercial either.
Don't understand that at all, I thin it IS commercial.
>I'll check with the other FoReM SysOps I know and see what they say.
Last I heard it still is for FoReM SysOps. What node are yo OS8~)
------------------------------
Date: 7 Nov 89 08:46:12 GMT
From: shlump.nac.dec.com!wldwst.enet.dec.com@decuac.dec.com (Ron van Zuylen)
Subject: Spectre and other Mac emulators
In article <8911070804.AA12638@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>,
E_GS18@vaxa.nerc-murchison.ac.UK (Russ Evans) writes:
>1. I understand that Spectre 128 uses 128k Mac ROMs, and runs Version 6
>software. I have also been told that current Macs are running 256k ROMs and
>that Version 7 will support virtual memory (though I presume only on the '030
>models). How will this affect Spectre users?
Yes, the Spectre 128/GCR can use 128K Mac (Plus) ROMs or old 64K Mac ROMs. It
is quite stable, at least with 6.0.2 (which I'm currently using). MultiFinder
isn't rock solid; it acts pretty strange. The latest release, 6.0.4, contains
numerous fixes... maybe it will run better on the Spectre. We'll know if
Apple's 7.0 works when it is released. Yes, virtual memory will only be
supported on MMU equipped Macintosh systems. The rest really doesn't have any
reason to not work with the Spectre.
>2. What facilities for disk access does Spectre GCR support? Can I read files
>directly from a Mac disk into my application? Most importantly, is the GCR
>an add-on extra to the Spectre 128, or is it complete in itself?
>(Comment: at UK prices of UKL760 [US$1200] for 128+GCR+support kit, it would
>make a real Mac look quite cheap!)
The Spectre GCR is the Spectre 128 with Macintosh disk access ability. It will
read, write and format Macintosh disks faster than a Macintosh. I've compared
the speed side by side... and it's really true.
>3. Are there any differences between the US and UK versions?
I don't think so... I'm not sure.
>4. Should I consider buying one when I am in California next month? How much
>should I expect to pay?
Well, it supposedly retails for U.S. $300. The price won't be much different
at most retailers.
>5. Can anyone comment on the reliability of Spectre 128 or GCR?
>(Comment: I bought a BMS hard disk kit a couple of years back, and experienced
>a chip failure within a couple of days of starting up. No flames on BMS; chips
>do fail sometimes and they exchanged the card for a new one without question on
>my next visit. Nice guys to do business with. But I'm a long way away if I am
>looking for support!)
The reliability is excellent. Gadgets by Small stand behind their products.
>6. Is there a good Atari shack in the Santa Barbara area? Given that it's the
>kind of area where anything less than a Mac IIci is considered demode (please
>reinstate accents!), I would be surprised to find one. Alternatively, I will
>also be visiting the west Bay area, specifically Menlo Park, although I expect
>to be very busy at that time. Can anyone recommend a good place? Directions
>from, say, downtown Palo Alto at El Camino Real would be particularly helpful.
>Perhaps there's a good store in Sunnyvale :~)
Well, there is B & C ComputerVision in Santa Clara and San Jose Computer in,
surprise, San Jose. I don't know about Santa Barbara...
>Russ Evans
>c/o British Geological Survey, Edinburgh, UK
The Spectre GCR is a really great product. The only features I can think of
that I would like to see added are:
- Improved MultiFinder stability (is it really just Apple's weird code?)
- Shutdown/restart that works (it is hard keeping average users "ejecting"
hard drive partitions before turning the machine off - ARGH!)
- Selectable Spectre or Macintosh (GCR) disk format while running as a
Macintosh (it only formats Macintosh now)
- Macintosh SCSI device support (using ICD, Supra, etc. host adapter) so we
can use real Macintosh SCSI hardware
- Sound improvements: correct pitch, newer system compatibility, etc.
- Expensive Christmas presents for faithful users :-)
Oh yeah, a fix for my Future Systems GTS-100 drive so it can work with the
GCR would be great! ANYONE have any ideas how I can get this beast to stop
filtering out the high frequencies? (Is that the problem?) It figures that
I own the only 3rd-party drive that does not work with the GCR. At least I
have one drive that works...
Ron S. van Zuylen + rvanzuylen%wldwst.enet@decwrl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation ASIP + decwrl!wldwst.enet!rvanzuylen
Cupertino, California USA + "Order your very own VAX 9000 today!"
------------------------------
Date: 11 Nov 89 16:47:56 GMT
From: portal!cup.portal.com!buggs@uunet.uu.net (William Edward JuneJr)
Subject: TT vs 386 boxes and Apples...
This is the second time I saw Atari in a copy of Unix World.
On page 69 of the latest issue, it shows the desktop manager Atari chose for
the TT.
It's from a company from France.
Sorry I don't have many particulars, I left the mag at work.........
Ed June
------------------------------
Date: 11 Nov 89 19:23:45 GMT
From: gem.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!pi@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu
(Peter J Ikusz)
Subject: Unix for St, (MTC-Shell, etc.)
I am wondering if anyone has used any of the Unix shells for the St?
And if someone could compare and/or contrast the differences between
the better ones.
Also, does anyone know of a good Pascal compiler that works under a
smilar shell.
Thanks, Pete I.
BTW : I am sick (and tired) of TT bashing. You can complain of its faults
now, but Atari will not change it. There is nothing you can do.
As far as we know, Atari people do not even have the exact stats
on their own machine, therefore, how are we able to know what
these stats are? Complain when it is released, not now.
PS : If you are looking for an ARGUEMENT (Monty Python type) I think
there are people on Rec.humor.funny that are looking for one. Maybe
they have 'Information' on the TT!
Later...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Movie Quotes of the 80's:
"What's amatter Colonel Sanders, Chicken?": Dark Helmet
"Poachers shooting at rabbits scare the big game away.": D.R.Scoundrels
Pete Ikusz : PI@csd4.uwm.csd.edu : University of Wisconsin Milwaukee
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 9 Nov 89 01:55:31 GMT
From:
imagen!atari!portal!cup.portal.com!Henry_Burdett_Messenger@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: unix on the TT
Richard Covert writes:
> Ken, I have made this comment on GEnie, but briefly I think that the
> TT could be a killer machine if two things are done:
> 1) It must be an OPEN system with plenty of card slots for third party vendor
> addons. This is really an important feature for an expensive workstation
> class machine.
Why?
DEC and Sun have a serious lock on this market, and they both
sell *lots* of workstations without any busses at all.
> 2) It must have AT&T System V Release 4.0 UNIX with X Windows. AT&T has
> publicly announced binary compatibility between all Sys V Rel 4 UNIX
> on the same cpu. So, with X Windows you have a common platform to develop
> applications for many different machines. This means that the TT Tower
> could run programs from Sun or maybe even Apple.
It's 1989 and UN*X still sucks. Maybe someday it will grow up
and become a real operating system. When it gets a distributed
lock manager and indexed files and asynchronous system traps and...
I'm not interested in an OS that was designed as a word processing
system for secretaries in the Dark Ages of Computing.
> I have heard rumors that Atari is going to buy some strange non-AT&T UNIX
> type OS w/o X Windows.
The X Window System (_not_ "X Windows", there is no such thing) will
run under MANY OSs. It is not, by any means, limited to UN*X. It
runs perfectly well under God's Own Operating System, VMS.
> Especially if the TT/Tower is cheaper
> then a Sun or an Apple Mac A/UX system.
Well, when THEY can get cheaper than a DECstation 3100, please
let me know. And I guarantee you that MIPS processor will eat
the Sun's lunch, let alone a Macintosh...
- hbm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Henry B. Messenger henry_burdett_messenger@cup.portal.com
Digital Equipment Corporation isn't responsible for anything I say on Usenet
"Hello, I know that you've been feeling tired.
I bring you love and deeper understanding."
------------------------------
Date: 9 Nov 89 00:37:28 GMT
From: imagen!atari!portal!cup.portal.com!Xorg@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Peter Ted
Szymonik)
Subject: Want a fast Atari ST...how about a '030 chip?
Yes its true! Dave Small has teamed up with Jim Allen of Fast
Technologies to make an add-on board for the ST which will run
a '030 chip at 16MHz!! Reportly this board speeds Spectre GCR
to Mac IIci speeds! I didn't ctach all of the GEnie CO last night,
but will UL a transcript as soon as I get my hands on it!
Peter Szymonik
Xorg@cup.portal.com
------------------------------
End of INFO-ATARI16 Digest V89 Issue #636
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